Lyman 358156 38 Special +P+ 38/44 Loads

[Dave Dill]

Hello everyone, I’m new to this forum, although I’ve been creeping on it as a guest for years and have gained a TON of knowledge casting bullets from it, so thank you all upfront!

This question is very particular, and I’ve seen some of what I’m looking for touched on several other threads going back years, but here’s my particular question:

I have thousands of 38 Special cases and about… 16 357 Magnum cases, so with my 358156 clone I’ve been crimping on the lower crimp in 38 cases and loading 12.5 grains of 2400 for several months from my 4” GP100 with fantastic results. But alas, I’ve run out of 2400…

I’ve this week loaded 6 grains of Unique and crimped the lower groove and have gotten pretty decent results as well, but now I’m running out of Unique…

So now I’m looking for 38/44, or mild 357 loads ran in 38 Special cases with the 358156 crimped low, with what powders I have left: Blue Dot, Herco, H110.

Does anyone have any old formulas with such? Thank you all. The manuals all seem to eschew this area/ bullet particulars for what I’m working with.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Welcome to the forum! 38/44 is one of my favorite cartridges! Cheap or free brass that clears the cylinder easier than 357 and uses less powder.

Have you seen the 38/44 data from handloader magazine? If not, check the link below…

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....heavy-38/page6

[Dave Dill]

I have seen that! That was part of the picture for me getting the 2400 load (12.5 grains) I’ve been using, but now I’m in the sticky spot of not having 2400, nor Lil’ Gun or Unique and was hoping there’s something to fill the gap with Blue Dot, Herco, or H110. I would go buy more 2400 or 357 brass, but 2022 looks more and more like 1938 regarding scarcity of powder/ brass.

I do see a formula with 6-6.6 grains of Herco that sounds interesting with a similar SWC.. I can try that.

[gwpercle]

I use that boolit , Lyman 358156 , sized .358" , w/ gas check , in 38 special cases , w/ boolit crimped in the lower crimp groove w/ Herco :
Data taken from RCBS Cast Bullet Manual number 1

Starting load - 6.2 grs. @ 905 fps / Maximum load - 6.7 grs. @ 974

My Pet Load is 6.5 grs @ 940 fps ...
I had buckets of 38 Special brass but very few 357 magnum cases .
Using this particular boolit , with a upper and lower crimp groove , was from an article by Skeeter Skelton ... he explained how to use that lower crimp groove and 38 special cases to get 38 +P / near 357 Magnum loads .
This mould was the second mould I bought (358477 was the first) .

The new Lyman Cast Bullet Manual shows 357 magnum data with 357 magnum cases to have a Max. Load of 7.5 grs Herco @ 1151 fps .
For use in the 38 special case , boolit seated in lower crimp groove , drop the powder charge 1.0 grain for safety ... which would be 6.5 grs. Herco -
which is exactly what my pet load is . I've shot these for years in Ruger (3-screw) Blackhawk .
I don't like to push the envelope with 38 special cases and 357 magnum loads ... so far the 6.5 gr. load has not created any problems and extraction is not sticky in my RBH .


Gary

[Larry Gibson]

Work up to 10.5 gr Blue Dot. That 10.5 gr pressure tests right at the SAMMI MAP for the 357 Magnum at 35,000 psi.

[Dave Dill]

These are great. I’m glad I finally joined. Thank ya’ll kindly. I’ll give velocities and groups for acquired loads soon.

[Ben]

Just a thought for you, using internet load data from individuals you know little about may not be wise. Particularly the +P+ types of loads you are referencing.

Ben

[Dave Dill]

Ben, this goes without saying. However, I have manuals, I have a bit of experience with 38/44/ 357 loading and casting, I work up loads, and in good faith I asked for suggestions for powders that are in the ballpark for caliber/GP100 pressure and burn rate. I don’t think any of the suggested loads are outside the pale of orthodoxy so far.

[Ben]

OK, Be careful some of those loads listed are on the edge.

Ben

[Larry Gibson]

Just a thought for you, using internet load data from individuals you know little about may not be wise. Particularly the +P+ types of loads you are referencing.

Ben

The data I gave is not based on any "guestimate" or gathered from other data. The test of the pressure using the Oehler m43 PBL on a Contender test barrel was the pressure data from the actual test.

The 35156 seated long to the lower crimp groove OAL is .075 shorter than the same bullet seated to the normal crimp groove in the 357 Case. That's very close to the same case capacity. Lyman #4 CBH lists 10.5 gr Blue Dot as the max load with that bullet in the 357 Magnum. Lyman's conclusion, based on their pressure measurements, is exactly what i determined a max load to be also with my pressure measurements. The pressures I measured were fired in a 357 magnum chamber which is what his SP 101 is chambered for. As one should always do I recommended he "work up" to the load.

Note; I shoot a lot of the 10.5 gr Blue Dot loads with the 358156 in my Ruger Security Six. If I did not have a bit of 357 brass I would use the same load in 38 SPL cases with the 358156 seated out to the second crimp groove. It is a good magnum level load for use in 357 magnum revolvers and rifles.

[Hi-Speed]

I’ve gotten away from Herco and Blue Dot over the years. There are many better powders out there than to rely on powders which are nearly impossible to find nowadays. I would look at N340, N350 (check VV site for data) Accurate 5, Longshot or CFE…and get yourself a copy of Handloader #304 dated Oct 2016 which contains a multitude of 38-44 and 38 Spl +P loads. I’ve basically have gotten away from hot rodding 38 Special preferring to load 38-44 level loads using 357 Magnum cases…it’s a prudent practice and I find them more accurate and consistent with the powders I’ve mentioned.

[beagle]

Look at castpics/articles: for .38/44 loads. I played with these loads about 15 years back and attempted to duplicate the old loads with a couple of new powders but used the old bullets and powder as much as possible./beagle

[Kosh75287]

Mr. Dill, if you're out of Unique, you still have access to the next best thing. Try using the Herco with data for Unique, but increase the charge weight 5% to 8%. Start low and work up in small increments, of course. If you want a true .38-44 load, you can get there with Unique OR Herco, without using up all your Blue Dot. Keep .38 Spl. cases and H110 far FAR separated from each other. Bad ju-ju...