44-40 Videos, Pressure Test Pressure Curves

[Savvy Jack]

Over the past few years I conducted 83 ten shot tests using the PressureTrace II system. Recently I decided to try and open up a comparison chart using overlays in the Gimp editing software and make some videos out of them..

It is not the best but I think it is certainly good enough for discussions.

It took me a while to satisfy myself as to the accuracy, but with the discovery of a few missing links, in general, everything is 100% consistent with reloading manuals and factory ammunition.

Rather than do one video at a time, once or so a week, I decided to dump a few all at one time. Check the website link below for updates.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...e-trace-videos

[Nobade]

Fascinating! You are putting a lot of myths to bed with this work. I for one certainly appreciate what you have and are doing here. A thought, how about testing some duplex loads? That might make for some interesting comparisons.

[Savvy Jack]

I would have loved to have tested more loads but me and computers just dont mix very well. I gave the equipment to someone else for other projects. A new system now costs $800

[Savvy Jack]

Ed Harris' 230gr 43-230G has been added to the new Reloder 7 230gr/240gr video...probably the best performing of the group.

I personally used a Hornady SWC HP for hunting but never tested it.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...e-trace-videos

[HWooldridge]

Nice - thanks for posting this info.

[indian joe]

Fascinating! You are putting a lot of myths to bed with this work. I for one certainly appreciate what you have and are doing here. A thought, how about testing some duplex loads? That might make for some interesting comparisons.

I too would have liked to see duplex tested. I dont load it in the 44/40 as I have a brass 66 and am a subscriber to the "no free lunch theory" but duplex works a treat in my 38/40 model 92 - what I really like about this powder for duplex is its density is identical to my black powder - have not chrono'ed my load yet

[HWooldridge]

I too would have liked to see duplex tested. I dont load it in the 44/40 as I have a brass 66 and am a subscriber to the "no free lunch theory" but duplex works a treat in my 38/40 model 92 - what I really like about this powder for duplex is its density is identical to my black powder - have not chrono'ed my load yet

Joe, what powder do you use for the smokeless portion?

[Outpost75]

I'm not Indian Joe, but for .44-40 duplex I've found that any fast-burning pistol or shotgun powder which us easily ignited works fine and can be throughly mixed with the BP. Unnecessary to load smokeless next to primer and to compress charge to prevent m8xing. In modern clones of Colt SA and Winchester '73 you can use WST, 452AA, TiteGroup or 231 to substitute for 10% of the black powder charge by weight. In soft 8r9n black powder frames I reduce to 5% of the black powder charge in .44-40, .45 Colt, .38-55, .45-70.

[indian joe]

Joe, what powder do you use for the smokeless portion?

ha! brain fog got me .....IMR 4227 ......have been told that AR2205 is the same powder ....dont know for sure

I know Outpost75 has the experience - we are of different opinion (thats ok we both here safe and sound) .....I have loads of Red Dot, WST, 452AA, and I am not goin there - too fast for my liking - most of the recommendations I see are 4227 or sr4759 - I also dont mix it in the black - prefer to put the smokeless on the primer - it works and its easy - I use a little LEE scoop, empty shells on my left, invert it to make sure, add one scoop, shell goes on my right, done a bunch of em fill to level with my powder horn, compress - all done easy

[missionary5155]

Good morning Jack
Thank you for posting these graphs and videos. It is interesting to see visible evidence what powders are doing expanding down the barrel and the the ultimate high pressure. This is going to take some digesting.

[HWooldridge]

ha! brain fog got me .....IMR 4227 ......have been told that AR2205 is the same powder ....dont know for sure

I know Outpost75 has the experience - we are of different opinion (thats ok we both here safe and sound) .....I have loads of Red Dot, WST, 452AA, and I am not goin there - too fast for my liking - most of the recommendations I see are 4227 or sr4759 - I also dont mix it in the black - prefer to put the smokeless on the primer - it works and its easy - I use a little LEE scoop, empty shells on my left, invert it to make sure, add one scoop, shell goes on my right, done a bunch of em fill to level with my powder horn, compress - all done easy

I have built duplex loads in the 45-70 using SR4759 or Unique with BP but I never considered it in the 44-40. The only difference I could ever see in the 45-70 was less fouling. I always put the smokeless next to the primer then dumped the main charge on top.

[Savvy Jack]

All eight videos have been added

[Savvy Jack]

I loaded up a few more PressuretraceII Videos but this time only about 30 seconds or so each and no talking. They can be seen here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...e-trace-videos

I also have about eight more test I would like to make regarding Dupont No. 2 powder and Sharpshooter powder. Since I can't seem to add photos here, details can be seen on the 44-40 website here:
sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40/handloading-introduction/pressure-testing

[Savvy Jack]

The 44-40 Google Docs "Pressure" Page has been updated to reflect the 3 new tests 1A, 3A (re-tests for "control"), and test 90. I also updated a few other items by including the 1917 WRA data and highlighting Lyman's max loads that were previously tested. I will update other items as well as dates etc. the week of the 20th.

44-40 Chamber Pressure Test Results Update

[Savvy Jack]

I really enjoyed this test.

I acquired two full boxes of Winchester Red Label smokeless Dupont No. 2 charged cartridges dated 1914. These are WRA headstamped with a large balloon pocket. I took 13 of the best looking cartridges and dissected them. I replaced the 1W primers with modern small pistol primers and replaced the LRNFP bullets with 200gr JSP. I recharged each cartridge with 17gr of the wonderful smelling Dupont No. 2 powder.

The following pressure curves show a slow burn rate, slower than black powder loads during that time, and more consistent. The velocities are a bit slower than advertised. Peak pressure is also lower than the original replicated black powder charges, as published data has indicated.

Very consistent for a 100 year old powder.

[Savvy Jack]

There is just too much information for me to repost it all here.

For those that are somewhat following the progress, I have updated the Pressure Testing page of the 44-40 website with a large selection of test result charts to compare.

The test results prove that early smokeless powders used by Winchester produced less pressures than original black powder loads. They also prove that the 44-40 ballistics was greatly reduced by the 1970's.

Black powders of today create less pressure than those of the originals and sends the wrong message about pressure comparisons for modern smokeless loads.

I have created a 44-40 Pressure Timeline for those interested.

I have also updated the 44-40 google docs pages with the Recent Pressure Test Results, also for those interested in understanding the myths of this cartridge's performance of yesteryear vs today.

If you visit the google docs page, make sure you look at all of the data by select all of the tabs at the bottom of the chart window.

[Savvy Jack]

21gr IMR-4227

Shots 1 thru 4, normal loading
Shot 5 - Powder positioned to the back of the case.
Shot 6 - Powder positioned to the front of then case.

[Savvy Jack]

The bad news is that I was not precise with my aim while performing the tests. The good news is that, even so....look what we got with 100 year old powder, .4255" JSP bullets in a 20" barrel, .429" bore with a 1:20" twist @ 50 yards

[Savvy Jack]

Wonder if this will work, might play with this more in the near future.

Click image to play gif.

I took one of each ten shot groups that best matched the average pressures of that group and made this gif.

[Larry Gibson]

When pressure testing, especially if i have the second set of Sky Screens in front of the 100 yards target, it's difficult to really shoot the best groups. Just too much other things to track keeping from shooting the screens and making sure the testing is consistent.

Excellent testing on your part BTW, well done.