9 mm load development

[Pirate69]

I have purchased a new Sig Sauer P320 X5 Legion in 9mm. Thought I would determine the lowest powder charge that will work the slide and at the same time look at grouping. Five loads of 5 rounds, between 3.4 grains of Unique and 4.2 grains of Unique were balance-weighed for the test. I am shooting a powder coated Lee 358-125-RF which weighs around 132 grains as sized to 0.358”. Loads shot from lowest charge to highest charge.

The loads were shot off a bench with a Case-Guard plastic pistol rest. Not the best but all I have to work with. Target distance was a measured 50 feet and a 1” target dot was used as a target.

The Legion has the heavier 14-pound slide spring installed. All loads worked the slide properly. The 3.4 grain load is about as low as I can go with the 14-pound spring. The spent cases just clear the port and lands about 1 foot from the pistol on the bench.
There does not seem to be a lot of difference in the group sizes. Will probably select the 3.6 grain load for the next loading session.

I had previously loaded some rounds using the 0.5 cc (4.6 grains?) Lee dipper. Shot eight rounds and got a center to center spread of 3 inches at 50 feet. The best 7 rounds gave me a 2-inch group. Does not look like weighing provides much improvement over dipping.

Powder Coated 132 gr Lee 358-125-RF
Unique powder
Powder Charge 5 Shot Group; Inches Best 4 of 5; Inches QuickLoad Vel.
3.4 .....................2.75 ........................2.25 ......................827
3.6 .....................2.75 ........................1.25 ......................869
3.8 .....................2.13 ........................2.13 ......................910
4.0 .....................2.25 ........................2.13 ......................950
4.2 .....................2.25 ........................1.25 ......................989

[megasupermagnum]

No, if all you are getting is 2"-3" at 50 feet, then powder weight is at the bottom of the list. It's when you get to 3"-4" at 50 yards that you will see a difference between weighed and thrown powder charges. Even then, I often find the Lee dippers to be about the most accurate way to throw powder. That's how I load my 800x loads.

[MT Gianni]

I would suggest that Unique is a medium flow through a measure. AA2 should measure the same either way as it flows like water. 800x and Ramshot Silhuette may be better dipped.

[Green Frog]

I'm using an old Pacific (rotor type) Pistol Measure. By trial and error I found a rotor that drops about 4.15 grains of HP38 which I put under some commercially swaged round nosed lead bullets that run 125 grains. Function in my S&W Model 639 is flawless, but I haven't really tested it for paper accuracy... it qualifies as minute of plinker accurate, so that is good for now. I will mention that I've come into a bunch of HP38 and W231, so I'll adjust the charge a little, but I expect to keep using it for both my 9mm autos and my 32s as well.

Froggie

[farmbif]

for 9mm I grown to like silhouette and be-86. but there are a lot of powders that work very well. ive always practiced with loads that are going to most effective if going to depend on them for self protection.

[Pirate69]

No, if all you are getting is 2"-3" at 50 feet, then powder weight is at the bottom of the list. It's when you get to 3"-4" at 50 yards that you will see a difference between weighed and thrown powder charges. Even then, I often find the Lee dippers to be about the most accurate way to throw powder. That's how I load my 800x loads.

I am not sure I am capable of achieving 3"-4" at 50 yards with open sights and a 5" barrel. But, I guess a trial is in order. My guess is 12"-15". If better, I think I would be very happy. Is anyone seeing 2"-3" at 50 yards with open sights?

[44MAG#1]

I am not sure I am capable of achieving 3"-4" at 50 yards with open sights and a 5" barrel. But, I guess a trial is in order. My guess is 12"-15". If better, I think I would be very happy. Is anyone seeing 2"-3" at 50 yards with open sights?

What can you do with the gun at 50 yards OFFHAND with good factory ammo. Then see what you can do with the same ammo from a good rest at 50 yards. Then determine if you are capable of telling minor differences in bench accuracy when shooting offhand. Only worry when you get good enough OFFHAND to tell minor differences off a benchrest in your OFFHAND shooting.

[farmbif]

I got one of those Burris fast fires. although there are all kinds of sights and lasers these days for handguns. my eyes are not what they used to be.
there is an FBI training film where the firearms instructor demonstrates shooting semi auto handgun into bullseye at 100 yards. that is worth watching if you can find it. I believe it was available on YouTube at some point.

[megasupermagnum]

I am not sure I am capable of achieving 3"-4" at 50 yards with open sights and a 5" barrel. But, I guess a trial is in order. My guess is 12"-15". If better, I think I would be very happy. Is anyone seeing 2"-3" at 50 yards with open sights?

Yes, I can get to 3" at 50 yards, but that has been about my limit. It takes a lot of different things to make that happen, and I do not go through all that trouble for practice ammo. I'm not saying you have to do it, or that you shouldn't work up loads, but if all you are shooting is 50 feet, load development will not help you. Every bullet, and every load will work at 50 feet.

[Pirate69]

Yes, I can get to 3" at 50 yards, but that has been about my limit. It takes a lot of different things to make that happen, and I do not go through all that trouble for practice ammo. I'm not saying you have to do it, or that you shouldn't work up loads, but if all you are shooting is 50 feet, load development will not help you. Every bullet, and every load will work at 50 feet.

Awesome!!!!!!!!!

[dverna]

Yes, I can get to 3" at 50 yards, but that has been about my limit. It takes a lot of different things to make that happen, and I do not go through all that trouble for practice ammo. I'm not saying you have to do it, or that you shouldn't work up loads, but if all you are shooting is 50 feet, load development will not help you. Every bullet, and every load will work at 50 feet.

I pretty honest post IMO. Most CF semiauto pistols will not shoot consistent 3" groups at 50 yards regardless of how good the ammunition or shooter are.

And at 50' nearly any bullet/load will work for most people.

The only "load development" I have ever done for pistol calibers is for Bullseye and for pistol caliber carbines. both at 50 yards. I do not hunt with a pistol so no need to have a super accurate load past 25 yards.

I keep things simple. For example, I use the .38 Spl to plink in seven guns. I find a load that is the most accurate in the scoped carbine and use the same load in everything else. Even if a different load would be more accurate in a couple of the pistols I would not care. A 1" difference in group size at 25 yards is not material for my needs.

I got a couple of 9mm carbines this winter and will do the same thing. What ever works best in the carbines will become my 9mm pistol practice load.

Other people will use different powders and different bullets in each gun to get the best possible accuracy for each of them. That is the "best" way to develop loads but a waste of time for me. I am not good enough to take advantage of the performance difference. I load in bulk and do not want multiple loads for each caliber. It is nice to pick up a few boxes of ammunition and know it will work in everything.

Most people overthink stuff like this. Even a Master Class shooter cannot hit a 3" target at 50 yards every shot. And the bulk of pistol rounds are fired at 25 yards or less.


If I had a scoped handgun and needed accuracy to 100 yards, I would treat it like a rifle load.

[Green Frog]

I pretty honest post IMO. Most CF semiauto pistols will not shoot consistent 3" groups at 50 yards regardless of how good the ammunition or shooter are.

And at 50' nearly any bullet/load will work for most people.

The only "load development" I have ever done for pistol calibers is for Bullseye and for pistol caliber carbines. both at 50 yards. I do not hunt with a pistol so no need to have a super accurate load past 25 yards.

I keep things simple. For example, I use the .38 Spl to plink in seven guns. I find a load that is the most accurate in the scoped carbine and use the same load in everything else. Even if a different load would be more accurate in a couple of the pistols I would not care. A 1" difference in group size at 25 yards is not material for my needs.

I got a couple of 9mm carbines this winter and will do the same thing. What ever works best in the carbines will become my 9mm pistol practice load.

Other people will use different powders and different bullets in each gun to get the best possible accuracy for each of them. That is the "best" way to develop loads but a waste of time for me. I am not good enough to take advantage of the performance difference. I load in bulk and do not want multiple loads for each caliber. It is nice to pick up a few boxes of ammunition and know it will work in everything.

Most people overthink stuff like this. Even a Master Class shooter cannot hit a 3" target at 50 yards every shot. And the bulk of pistol rounds are fired at 25 yards or less.


If I had a scoped handgun and needed accuracy to 100 yards, I would treat it like a rifle load.

Master cClass in what discipline? If a Bullseye shooter can’t stay in 3” at 50 yds Slowfire he won’t make Master Class, and if his shooting falls off to where he no longer can stay in 3”, he won’t be very competitive.

Froggie

[gwpercle]

I agree 100% with your statement about Unique and dipping charges vs weighing ...
Unique being rather flaky lends itself well to dipped charges ... lets rephrase that ... You can dip Unique as well or better than metered charges ... who wants to weigh every handgun charge !!!
I shoot a lot of Unique and have gone more to using dippers . They are just as accurate as my Lyman 55 and weighing them all is slow with no big advantage .
When loading in batchs of 50 to 200 ... the dipper gets the used to dispense the powder .
I also like the fact I can see the powder go in the case and can visually inspect them all before seating a boolit ... makes me feel safer seeing the powder go in .
Gary

[MT Gianni]

Comparing load accuracy from anything other than a rest is pointless, IMO.

[44MAG#1]

Comparing load accuracy from anything other than a rest is pointless, IMO.

That is because 90 percent can't shoot well enough OFFHAND to tell small differences in accuracy. It is nice to tell ones self that but deep down most know they can't

[Pirate69]

Well, I had to try a 50-yard group. I had some rounds that were loaded for another pistol available. I have shot-up everything I had loaded to play with the Sig. From the plastic rest, I shot ten rounds. First of all, I was surprised that they hit high on the target. The spread for the ten rounds was 10 inches. But, 7 of the rounds gave a slightly less than a 5-inch spread. Potential, better than I expected. I want to see if some carefully sorted boolets and balance-weighed charges can get me in a 10-round, 5-inch group at 50-yards. Something to play with anyway.

[Pirate69]

That is because 90 percent can't shoot well enough to tell small differences in accuracy. It is nice to tell ones self that but deep down most know they can't

That would be me. LOL

[44MAG#1]

That would be me. LOL

It is not only you but most of us. I have learned through observation most handgun shooter just aren't as good as they think. This is what I have determined over years of membership at ranges plus shooting on indoor ranges.
I shot with an ex shooting partner of mine that was a High Master Class NRA Bullseye shooter and he was good. Very, very, very good. It didn't matter how much recoil he could handle it. He is now over 80 and doesn't shoot handguns anymore
He was the best I have seen personally. I have heard the "talkers" and "wallet group" guys talk a big game but that is what it mostly is.

[GONRA]

GONRA's 85 and recently gifted all my .44 mag, 44 AUTOMAG, 45 Win Mag semiauto pistols,
ammo, dies, moulds, etc. and reloading components to my Youngest Son.
Gettin Olde's Bad New, but gotta face the facts!!!

[dverna]

It is not only you but most of us. I have learned through observation most handgun shooter just aren't as good as they think. This is what I have determined over years of membership at ranges plus shooting on indoor ranges.
I shot with an ex shooting partner of mine that was a High Master Class NRA Bullseye shooter and he was good. Very, very, very good. It didn't matter how much recoil he could handle it. He is now over 80 and doesn't shoot handguns anymore
He was the best I have seen personally. I have heard the "talkers" and "wallet group" guys talk a big game but that is what it mostly is.

True words. I have been shooting a long time and at different venues. Was captain of the university rifle team and member of the university pistol team. Have shot NRA Bullseye, Smallbore, IPSC, ISU pistol including free pistol, competitive trap etc etc. I have shot with great shooters.

There is a lot of BS flung around. Always wonder why so few great internet shooters do not compete. I would have won a lot fewer trinkets if the internet shooters had shown up and shot for score....or maybe not...LOL