Lee PrecisionTitan ReloadingRotoMetals2Reloading Everything
RepackboxLoad DataMidSouth Shooters SupplyInline Fabrication
Wideners
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 38 of 38

Thread: Too much chamber fouling on a Swiss Vetterli.

  1. #21
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    N. CA
    Posts
    45
    To make grease wads, 2 parts jojoba oil and 1 part bees wax by weight. I use 1/4” plexiglass strips for spacers and roll the lube out on a sheet of glass with a piece of waxed paper over the lube. Chill it in the refrigerator for easier handling. I use a wad punched from fiber milk cartons under and over the lube wad. Use the case mouth to cut the lube wad. The lube needs to be soft so it smears onto the bore. If it’s firm, it will just blow out the muzzle. The proper consistency is a lot like butter at room temperature. I’ve considered using unsalted butter, but the shelf life of the ammunition would be short because butter gets rancid.

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    NJ via TX
    Posts
    309
    I'll add that typically a first problem encountered with firing black powder cartridges is fouling at the end of the chamber, which will not allow a new cartridge to seat. Once cleaned out, it's good to go. Way back when I had that problem when using a blow tube (even though I loaded the lubed bullet cartridge with a grease cookie) that got me to start wiping, which lead to going the bore wiper route.

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy


    hpbear101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    256
    I shoot mostly smokeless in all of mine and it works great. I like BP cartridges and have tried it in the Vetterli and didn't have a lot of luck, my bullet doesn't have big enough grease grooves and my neck is too short for grease cookies. I have the same issue with a 50-95 Express and recently started using H777 FFG in that cartridge, and have also tried it in the Swiss and 11mm Mauser to good effect. The H777 behaves like BP just not supposed to compress it. It also has 15% more energy than equivalent volume of BP so at least in my 50-95 I am getting similar velocities as the original BP loaded in balloon head cases. This

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    NJ via TX
    Posts
    309
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhall_37 View Post
    I can’t really wipe between shots, the bolt is a real pain to remove and is an involved process, and I don’t like sticking a cleaning rod down the muzzle and getting gunk in the action.
    Use a patch worm. As long a length of weed wacker line for bbl in question plus another 6-8", blob one end with lighter flame, slip down a cleaning head in the size that appears good for the gun's bore plus a patch, slip down the line 'til it touches the cleaning head a patch that's wet or dry, open the gun's breech and snake down the patch worm line, grab it at the muzzle end and pull it out of the bbl.

    Patch worm cleaning heads are a buck each and come in sizes from .22 to 12ga.

    http://patchworm.com/accessories.html
    Last edited by FrankJD; 05-23-2022 at 07:45 AM.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    NJ via TX
    Posts
    309
    I find it hard to beat going the paper patched bullet route. The hardest part, which really ain't all that hard, is figuring out a proper slick diameter for a specific gun bbl bore, then what thickness paper to use for the patching. No cartridge OAL since it's a bore rider. No lubes. No bbl leading. Super fast cleanup after a shooting session. You sure can add in a grease cookie if need be, but wiping for fouling control will be easier and make for a faster and less complicated cartridge build.

  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    NJ via TX
    Posts
    309
    Another consideration about chamber fouling might be about the cartridge build. Is the brass of proper spec size/length and annealed? If it's properly annealed it should be soft enough to seal at the chamber throat after detonation. If it's not sealing properly, you'll see the outside of a just fired case have some bp soot on it. If the seal is good and chamber fouling is still an issue, then it's all about fouling control and/or a cleaner burning bp such as Swiss.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    270
    If you use grease cookies in bottlenecked cases, be sure that the cookie does not sit below the case neck, in the shoulder area--the cookie, expanded into the neck area when the bullet is seated, hits the neck and can cause circumferential splitting. With less than case capacity BP loads, use dacron or foam backer rod to fill the case above the powder to the neck, and place the cookie over that.
    BTW, Russian BII cartridge grease cookies were of a "tallow cup" design; a shallow waxed paper cup containing the lube was inserted into the case in order to prevent contamination of the BP with lube leaking out and around the shoulder area just below it.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    NJ via TX
    Posts
    309
    Pardon my ignorance about this Vetterli rifle and cartridge - the original is a bottle neck rimfire that was changed to centerfire, correct? What centerfire brass is being used now?

    Other than that, and judging by a few images of a Vetterli cartridge, there ain't much of a neck down to best accommodate both grease cookie and a bullet but should be okay with a cookie and a patched slick? Images I've seen of these vintage cartridges are using PPBs sticking fairly proud of the case mouth, which yields room for a wad or cookie.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,702
    First priority - get rid of the red lube - horrible stuff to use with blackpowder - result you describe (or worse) is absolutely the expected outcome
    you might also benefit from annealing case mouth/neck ----but definitely ditch that lube! any mix you make with beeswax and a natural oil/fat/grease will be far superior.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,702
    what did you use for brass ? I think I read 348 winchester is converted for the 41 Swiss ? If that is the case then double emphasis on the annealing - 348 brass is tough and Winchester extra tough, it hardens quickly in sizing / reforming - anneal the necks so they seal the chamber and keep soot and crud from blowing back down the sides of the case - that and decent BP lube might sort this easier than you think.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
    Mytmousemalibu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    1,277
    Something else that might be a contributing factor, the original 10.4x38R cartridge uses a heeled bullet. There are proper molds available to replicate the original load. I believe the military loading has a mild hollow base also. I intend to go the paper patched route with mine but also to exactly duplicate the military load. I have one old commercial rimfire cartridge but don't have the heart to pull it apart for examination. I luckily sourced a spare bolt for mine for centerfire conversion as to not touch the numbers matching original. I need to get more 8mm Lebel brass for conversion but also working on 32ga. Shotshell brass conversion.
    ~ Chris


    Casting, reloading, shooting, collecting, restoring, smithing, etc, I love it all but most importantly, God, Family, The United States Constitution and Freedom...

    God Bless our Troops, Veterans and First Responders!

    Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas
    Accuracy, Power & Speed

  12. #32
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    83
    Wow, just wow. You guys have been super helpful I don’t think I’m able to respond to all of y’all so I’ll address y’all here. So my brass is 10.4x42 formed from 8mm lebel, I have quite of neck with the longer brass. The rifle was converted CF buy the best of the best, Norm Sutton. I’ll get a swaging die set soon from NOE and will try the paper patch route, as for the grease cookies I’ll try and put less of it in the case to prevent it from squishing out, I’ll also make sure to place a wad on top of the cookie.

    You guys are way smarter than me, I’ll give updates soon, I don’t shoot the rifle much as it’s a pain to clean and take to the range because it so long.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Gillette Wyoming
    Posts
    970
    Proper lube. Pity you can’t wipe between shots.

    KW

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    NJ via TX
    Posts
    309
    He can easily wipe between shots using a patchworm.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,702
    If the bore is ok he should be able to get decent accuracy with a grease groove boolit and a blow tube .....BUT..... starting with bought boolits and red (smokeless) lube is a major handicap to making the first step on a longish learning curve - its gonna take some time

  16. #36
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    83
    I definitely need to get a casting area set up! I'll be looking into that soon.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,702
    I am feeling kind of left out here - there's a bucket load of "problems" on this thread and over 20 years of loading blackpowder cartridges it seems I missed out on all the fun - its been pretty straight sailing. My son had some hard barrel fouling in a 44/40 when we tried some bought boolits with RED LUBE on em - that was easy fixed - sold em off to a smokeless shooter and bought a mold. Later a problem with a spencer in 45 colt smoking the outside of the case - again easy fixed by annealing the cases.
    Never loaded for anything like the vetterli either - stuck to straight forward cowboy guns.
    three things
    1) LUBE - proper blackpowder lube that keeps the fouling soft in the bore and plenty of it to do the job
    2) BOOLIT good fit of boolit to bore and soft rather than hard
    3) BRASS that fits the chamber

    If ya cant chamber a following round after firing the gun then one, some, or all of these are in need of attention

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,423
    What Indian Joe said , spot on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/Ed

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check