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Thread: Too much chamber fouling on a Swiss Vetterli.

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    Too much chamber fouling on a Swiss Vetterli.

    Howdy folks, I’m loading for a friends Swiss Vetterli we got converted to center fire. I’m loading with goex, a waxed wad behind some Matt’s Bullets .430 315gr flat nosed bullets.

    After firing about 5 shots the chamber will not allow another round to chamber, I looked in it and saw lots of lead fouling.

    Is there a remedy to this solution? I have some rounds made up with my own lube on the Matt’s bullets and a grease cookie to see if they might function better.

    Or should I size the bullets down a touch to say .427? I also read that the chamber on these guns have a sort of taper to them so they might prefer a round nosed bullet?

    Any advice sure would help!

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    Are you sure it's lead fouling, or just BP fouling? What lubricant are you using? If you're using a petroleum based lubricant, it's just going to turn into cement when mixed with BP fouling as well. Fouling control? Alloy? Have you made a chamber cast to see what the throat diameter is and sized accordingly?

  3. #3
    Boolit Man
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    I was using the lube that came with the bullets, it’s a red color so I think it’s petroleum based. I don’t know the alloy off my head, but these bullets are for heavy 44 magnum loads so I think it’s on the harder side.

    My new cartridges I haven’t shot are made with a bees wax and olive oil lube I made.

    I assumed the fouling was lead as it was grey in color, however it could have been a sludge as you said.

    Haven’t done a chamber cast yet, I want to take it to the gun smith to do that, However he’s out sick for a while.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    If you were using a petroleum based lubricant, then even if you were acquiring lead fouling, that was probably a major part of the issue. Petroleum products and black powder do not mix, and should not mix. Hard alloy likely isn't doing you any favors either. You'll want at minimum a 40:1, 16:1 is better. I personally use 25:1 for almost everything but that's because I got a large supply of it for free and my wife would kill me if I ordered 300lbs of 16:1 right now. Sizing with BPC's is still important, and you need to make sure you fill up the throat to cut down on gas cutting. A good wad, vegetable or poly, will also help immensely.

    You'll likely see better results with your beeswax/olive oil lubricant you made, but it's not likely to fix every issue you're having. As to chamber casting, that is incredibly easy and doesn't require a gunsmith. Just need a propane torch, a ladle, and a cleaning rod with some patches.

  5. #5
    Boolit Man
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    Thanks for the great advice, I have a lee 44 310gr mould, just no lead or a pot to melt it in, that’s why I have to buy them.

    I’ll also use your advice on my Russian Berdan 2

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Castaway's Avatar
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    And wipe between shots

  7. #7
    Boolit Man
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    I can’t really wipe between shots, the bolt is a real pain to remove and is an involved process, and I don’t like sticking a cleaning rod down the muzzle and getting gunk in the action.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    Build yourself a blowtube and use that instead. I like wiping, but it can be a finnicky thing to get down when shooting grease groove bullets. Believe it or not, too clean can be an issue and it cost me a win... hell, it cost me a match period.

  9. #9
    Boolit Bub
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    The vetterli is a military cartridge and should be able to fire many shots before fouling out. Your bullet is too hard to start. Try 20/1 and a black powder lube such as DGL.

  10. #10
    Boolit Man
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    I’ve thought about the idea of a blow tube, I guess I’ll have to do it. I’m also still getting geared up to cast my own, once I can do that things will be a lot easier.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy tmanbuckhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelR View Post
    The vetterli is a military cartridge and should be able to fire many shots before fouling out. Your bullet is too hard to start. Try 20/1 and a black powder lube such as DGL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhall_37 View Post
    I’ve thought about the idea of a blow tube, I guess I’ll have to do it. I’m also still getting geared up to cast my own, once I can do that things will be a lot easier.
    What Michael said up there. My trapdoor with SPG and a government bullet can get up to about 20-25 shots before accuracy drops off, and about 60 before chambering gets difficult. Right alloy, right lube, it will continue to work. Blowtube will just help you keep accuracy there thru out the entire string of shots.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    pworley1's Avatar
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    I shoot smokeless in mine and have never had any issues.
    NRA Benefactor Member NRA Golden Eagle

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
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    Gotcha, I’d like to stick with black powder for now, it’s quite fun and I like the smoke.

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub
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    I just measured an original cartridge. The paper patched bullet measures .423” over the patch. The bullet it’s self is .415”. The paper is .002” thick. The Vetterli is loaded with the bullet and then the bullet and neck are patched. You probably can use a .423” GG bullet and open the neck up to hold it and the rifle should not notice the difference. I strongly suggest using PP bullets because they work much better for shooting “dirty”. Use 20/1 alloy and a mixture of one part bees wax and 2 parts jojoba oil for the lube. This lube works exceptionally well.

  15. #15
    Boolit Man
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    Had some success the other day, grease cookie load keep the fouling soft and I got through 16 rounds. The last 11 were loads with no grease cookie!! Only issue was a little bit of wax or olive oil from the grease cookie blew out into my glasses. Me thinks I need to make the cookie a little harder.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    You mention not wanting to run a cleaning rod down the muzzle and getting fouling in your action. Here's a trick you can use. Leave the fired case in the chamber when you clean it. I do my trapdoor springfield this way.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master


    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    I’m a fan of grease cookies.

  18. #18
    Boolit Man
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    To be honest I don’t even know how to make a proper grease cookie. I just placed a wad over the powder, filled the rest with dried but moist panlube and compressed a bullet on top. Some squished out the sides, but not all of it I think.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master


    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhall_37 View Post
    To be honest I don’t even know how to make a proper grease cookie. I just placed a wad over the powder, filled the rest with dried but moist panlube and compressed a bullet on top. Some squished out the sides, but not all of it I think.
    First start with what you use to lube your boolits. Melt it and pour it into a shallow container until it’s an eighth of an inch thick or so thick. After you have added BP and compressed it with a card on top, you can normally turn the case over without anything falling out. Stick the neck of the case into the now solidified boolit lube. It will act like a cutter and fill the mouth of the case. Then put a card on top and push it gently down onto the BP and card. Now seat the boolit on top.
    This is a very simplified way to start. There are many more nuances, especially the thickness and hardness of the cookie. You don’t want the lube used for the cookie to be squishing out. That risks the chance of some of it getting forced into the powder.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy FrankJD's Avatar
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    Grease cookies and wad stacks are great ways to decrease the powder charge.

    I think some, maybe most of the military rifle cartridges of the 19th century had grease cookies. I'd seen images of some of the cartridges opened up and there was a grease cookie. Now, that makes sense for the military where the need for fouling control is not such a good thing in the heat of a fire fight. And it might make good sense for a hunter, too.

    For competition where overall accuracy versus rate of fire sorta wins out, a full case charge of black powder under a wad and bullet or PPB makes more sense. With a .45-70, a PPB can sit in the case about 1/10" and that makes the rifle into a kinda virtual 45-90, sorta, maybe, cause I can easily charge that brass with at least 80 grains of 1-1/2f. Since a PPB is a bore rider, there's no concern for cartridge OAL, so if the gun likes it, seating the slick deeper into the case will reduce powder charge. I just did that with a real 19th century Remington rolling block rifle, charged it with 70 grains of Swiss 1-1/2f and stuck in a 416 grain slick. The old gun printed well at 25 and 50 yards (considering I have trouble with "V" sights and prefer peeps) and it got close to a mark on a mound 190 yards down range. Fouling control was just a pair of Moose Milk wet patches and then a dry patch. After shooting, rifle cleanup was a slow three minutes, too.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check