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Thread: Things To Ponder

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Things To Ponder

    Some things to think about on the background story of the murder of Jesus.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJsGWsJiopI

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    Boolit Master
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    Actually, Jesus was not murdered, He laid down His life for you and me so that we can have eternal life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioon44 View Post
    Actually, Jesus was not murdered, He laid down His life for you and me so that we can have eternal life.
    A matter of semantics. Jesus was voluntarily executed and/or murdered at the request of His Father for our good.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    By the mid-eastern standards of his day, Jesus was legally tried, condemned to death and executed, all on the same day. Thus, he was not murdered. On the other hand, the Sanhedrin's dark of night trial was illegal in several ways according to their own laws. But Jesus' Roman trial was legal by the laws of the Romans and it was they who killed him, not the Jews.

    Bottom line: Jesus' execution was a bad thing done in a bad way by bad people for very bad reasons but it wasn't murder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    By the mid-eastern standards of his day, Jesus was legally tried, condemned to death and executed, all on the same day. Thus, he was not murdered. On the other hand, the Sanhedrin's dark of night trial was illegal in several ways according to their own laws. But Jesus' Roman trial was legal by the laws of the Romans and it was they who killed him, not the Jews.

    Bottom line: Jesus' execution was a bad thing done in a bad way by bad people for very bad reasons but it wasn't murder.
    Pilate declared Jesus to be innocent (so did Herod). He had him "executed" anyway to make placate the mob. I think this qualifies as murder.

    The soldiers who carried out Pilates orders performed an execution.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    The people who arranged for His murder had murder in their hearts and acted upon it.
    The craft they used was law corrupted by politics the same way people do things today.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Murder is a specific word with the specific meaning of causing an illegal death.

    Pilate had the legal authority to execute any non-Roman he pleased for any reason he determined sufficent and by any means he deemed proper. Jesus didn't defend himself before Pilate. So, by definition and as a Jew, Jesus was legally executed by Roman authority, therefore "murder" is the wrong word for his' death. Call it what you will, it doesn't change anything, but murder is the wrong term.

    The Lord didn't blame anyone but Judas. He asked the Father to not hold his death against the rest of them because they simply didn't know what they were doing, none of them did. If they were "murdering" him they certainly would have known it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Murder is a specific word with the specific meaning of causing an illegal death.

    Pilate had the legal authority to execute any non-Roman he pleased for any reason he determined sufficent and by any means he deemed proper. Jesus didn't defend himself before Pilate. So, by definition and as a Jew, Jesus was legally executed by Roman authority, therefore "murder" is the wrong word for his' death. Call it what you will, it doesn't change anything, but murder is the wrong term.

    The Lord didn't blame anyone but Judas. He asked the Father to not hold his death against the rest of them because they simply didn't know what they were doing, none of them did. If they were "murdering" him they certainly would have known it.
    I see where you are coming from. But in the grand scheme of things, to intentionally take someone's life without proper cause (war, death penalty or self defense) is murder plain and simple. It doesn't matter what legal authority one has. At least that is what I think God thinks.

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    Boolit Grand Master
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    Jesus had to die. It does not matter if it was murder or not. God’s will was done.
    Don Verna


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    Boolit Buddy PJEagle's Avatar
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    In reality, after suffering on the cross and paying the price for all the sins mankind would ever commit, Jesus said, "It is finished" and dismissed his spirit. If you study the process of death by crucifixion, you will find that Jesus death occurred much sooner than normal. That is the reason none of his bones were broken, but the legs of the two thieves were broken to hasten their deaths.

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    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJEagle View Post
    In reality, after suffering on the cross and paying the price for all the sins mankind would ever commit,
    That's the common - but I believe wrong - perspective on Jesus' physical death. We say, "He bleed and died on the cross so we will never die." That sounds quite good but, save the Rapture, everyone knows we will die so something about it has to be missing.

    I believe the critical moment came when he was still living and cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me! (Matt 27:46)." I believe THAT moment of separation was when He was paying the horrifying spiritual "death penalty" for believing sinners.

    The sacrificed blood of Jesus washes us clean before the Father. Yet, we will perish and return to the dust of the earth from which we are made. But, because of our Lord's living sacrifice at that moment, believers who trust him will never know the agonizing pain of total spiritual separation from all of the good things of God (John 3:16)!

    There will be no Friday night beer parties with old buddies in hell.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    John 10: 17-18
    Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

    Galatians 2:20
    I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

    To me these verses and others clearly show this was not murder or that the Romans and Jews were not responsible, they were the instruments used for this sacrifice to be the fulfillment of prophecy.

    There are only two people who are responsible for Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, that would be You and Me.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Well said Loon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I see where you are coming from. But in the grand scheme of things, to intentionally take someone's life without proper cause (war, death penalty or self defense) is murder plain and simple. It doesn't matter what legal authority one has. At least that is what I think God thinks.
    I won't speak for God about it but you're thinking in today's terms.

    In Oliver Twist's England the law required hanging as just penalty if a starving street urchin stole a loaf of bread.

    In Pilate's day attempting to surplaint a Caesar within the Roman Empire was a death offense and Jesus was officially crucified for treason by saying he was Jesus of Nazerath, King of the Jews; that is what was painted on the board Pilate had nailed to the cross.

    I don't like either situation but I don't think it's fair to judge people outside their historical time.

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    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Some more on what transpired.
    How did they know in China? They were provided signs.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM7jcOY2xHM

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I don't like either situation but I don't think it's fair to judge people outside their historical time.
    I agree to a certain extent, but there are and always have been moral absolutes.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    When looking up references to fire I noticed who Peter said did it, but he didn't address those who intended and accomplished murder.

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    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    I agree to a certain extent, but there are and always have been moral absolutes.
    Well, if that's so, which period of human history contains the correct moral absolutes?

    What I'm thinking about is the long list of changed moral standards I've watched in just my short life; I can remember when the use of profanity was excluded from movies, now it's a steady flow from many movies. I remember when "gay" meant happy and "*****" just meant really odd. I even remember when government giving welfare money to healthy people was frowned upon.

    Aside from scripture, which modern liberals absolutely reject out of hand, I just don't see as many dependable moral absolutes in life as others do.

    I mean, we know "black slavery" was bad but I don't sneer at those who had them at the time. (And, as a side note, I think it's telling that so few slaves wanted to be shipped back to Africa after 1865 so maybe even that wasn't as absolutely bad as most people now think.)

    I believe we should judge others by the historical standards of the times in which they lived. Considering the moral degragradations of modern societies I sure don't think today is a trustworthy standard!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Well, if that's so, which period of human history contains the correct moral absolutes?

    What I'm thinking about is the long list of changed moral standards I've watched in just my short life; I can remember when the use of profanity was excluded from movies, now it's a steady flow from many movies. I remember when "gay" meant happy and "*****" just meant really odd. I even remember when government giving welfare money to healthy people was frowned upon.

    Aside from scripture, which modern liberals absolutely reject out of hand, I just don't see as many dependable moral absolutes in life as others do.

    I mean, we know "black slavery" was bad but I don't sneer at those who had them at the time. (And, as a side note, I think it's telling that so few slaves wanted to be shipped back to Africa after 1865 so maybe even that wasn't as absolutely bad as most people now think.)

    I believe we should judge others by the historical standards of the times in which they lived. Considering the moral degragradations of modern societies I sure don't think today is a trustworthy standard!

    My judgement is that murder is wrong regardless of whether or not someone's culture, government or religion says it is OK. The authority for my claim is not only the Bible, but most peoples' conscience and critical thinking. There isn't too much worse that you can do to another person.

    When it comes to chattel slavery in this country, it was wrong and those that owned other people knew it was wrong. They just ignored it, made excuses or didn't care. I don't excuse this, but I don't discount their important contributions to this country and the world in general.

    Society can go in any direction is chooses, but it doesn't dictate what is wrong from God's perspective and that is what I have been talking about.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    The interplay between the local and the Roman authorities is interesting to me, hence my having posted a link to that video.
    Pilate's wife's dream, the local organized crime bosses, the Judean peoples liberation front... it's all of interest.

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