Need 410 load data for two inch hulls!

[Vettepilot]

So, it's all about "pressures". Isn't it amazing, that in this particular instance, we are wondering about the difference in ability of a nitro overpowder wad (glorified cardboard), to capture pressure compared to the plastic cup/obturation section of a conventional plastic wad???

Yes, I fully understand that's a gross over-simplification, but that's the bottom line... Wouldn't it be so cool if we had a reliable yet affordable way to determine shotshell pressures??

STOP TYPING!! ;~)

I've been down this discussion "rabbit-hole" before, and am SO tired of hearing "Use approved/tested Loads". Sometimes circumstances and/or component availability preclude that!!

Just my 2 pennies...

Vettepilot

[Outpost75]

It depends upon what gun you are shooting these in. My H&R Garden Gun dates from pre-WW1 period and has a tiny, soft, malleable iron frame. Gun weighs only 4 pounds. I also have a rifled .44-40 barrel which John Taylor put together for me. No issues whatever using the same charges with 1/2 oz. of shot with safe smokeless charge I would use with 215 grain lead bullet in original 1873 Winchester or my 1905 Colt Gen1 Single Action. I use either 6 grains of Bullseye, 6.5 grains of 231, WST or 452AA, 7 grains of WSF, 8 grains Unique, 9 grains of Herco or AutoComp, 14 grs. #2400 or 18 grs. IMR4227.

While I haven't the ability to pressure test the shot loads, the . 44-40 bulleted loads have been tested and don't exceed SAAMI MAP.

[Vettepilot]

I've got a bunch of Unique. I might have to try that "8 gr Unique" load...

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[Cap'n Morgan]

Be very careful when using fast powders like Unique. You can't substitute a rifle/pistol bullet load with a shot load unless the powder "boiler room" has the same volume.
Unlike bullet loads where you crimp the bullet in place, shot loads rely on some sort of wad between shot & powder to keep the components from shifting around (unless you use crimped shot capsules)

Let's take a look at Quickload again, this time using 8 grains of Unique instead of 13.5 Li'l Gun in a .444 Marlin case:

The Li'l Gun load produced a pressure of 12.500 psi (while burning approx. 60% of the powder) Using 8 grains of Unique will take up less space, freeing more room for the shot load, but the reduced "boiler room" will increase the pressure dramatically to over 30.000 psi - well into modern handgun pressures, and way above .410 shotgun max.
A lighter load of Unique (5-6 grains) could probably be used, but it would still need a compressible wad to keep pressures within the C.I.P. limits, and calculating the pressure would be pure guesswork.

Notice that while the Li'l Gun powder only burnt about 60% of the load, Unique will burn a 100%, giving more bang for less buck.
Some smokeless recipes for large volume black powder cartridges uses slower burning powders, and, since maybe only half the powder has burned before the boolit leaves the muzzle, it keeps the pressure low, while still achieving good velocity. The powder acts both as a propellant and as an (expensive) filler!

[Vettepilot]

Thanks Cap'n Morgan. Yeah, after I posted that, I looked further into Unique, and as you say, it's a "no go" in 410. It's a very versatile powder, but not that versatile!

Vettepilot

[fecmech]

Can you cut the petals off of the wads for 2.5" shells, load something like LilGun for the additional room and get enough space to crimp?? You would just be using the plastic cup off the target style wad. I can send some if you like.(LilGun is more dense in .410 than 296/h110) Just a thought.

[Vettepilot]

I have two different type wads for 410 here. Both are from BPI, and have a mini cushion section that takes up/wastes space. I'm going to try that 13.5 gr Lil Gun load, with a nitro card and 191 grains of shot in these two inch shells.

Meanwhile, I'll get some other wads ordered to do as you say as well. I would somewhat rather have the shot in a cup, though I suppose I could use a wrap as well.

I just placed a bid for a Mec 600 Jr. 410. Auction ends here in a couple hours... wish me luck!!

Thanks!!

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Ha!! Well that was sad, but kinda funny...

I saw a Mec 600 jr 410 at an auction site. And another loader, and another. (not 410) I had been in the process of designing how to either make a way to reload 410 on one of my rifle presses, or maybe try to convert my Lee Load All to do 410. It's just another chore for me, in the midst of many! So I thought that maybe if I could find a 410 press cheap enough, I would just buy it and free up time for other chores/projects.

So I placed a bid. On the wrong dam one as it turned out!! While checking on the status of the auction, I noticed that I had bid on a 12 gauge model by mistake!! Crap!!

So then I thought, "Oh well, if I win, I'll just be forced to cough up the bucks for the 410 conversion kit." (Around 125 bucks--> ouch!)

But I lost.

So now I'm "back out in the cold", using my home-made "whack-a-mole" system and dreaming of presses.

:~(

Vettepilot

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gotta tell you, for all the time you've wasted on this project you'd have been better off sending them back to BPI and getting the 2 1/2" hulls in exchange. You'd be up and running by now, and it would be interesting to see how your AR ran with proper ammo. It probably won't run at all with 2" shells ??? Feeding problems and not enough gas to cycle the action?

I use 16.5 gr of H110 in my AA hulls with a Red Claybuster wad. This is the only load I have ever used in my .410's and the reason why is because it worked perfectly the first time and every time since.

You've already got H110 so why not use it? At least you'd know if the gun was going to run right out of the box with a common load.

My Citori Sporting Clays Edition .410 with 32" bbls is one of my favorite shotguns and every round I fire is a Reload and has been since the beginning..

Randy

[Vettepilot]

Well, it's all just a fun hobby for me, so no time is "wasted". The only time I ever loaded 410 was several years ago when I reloaded a few boxes for my brother-in-law. I also made him some 410 brass shells, and some 410 wax slugs which he just loved! But he rarely goes shooting; he's just not that into it. Since I didn't own anything in 410, that was the end of that.

Until now, with the purchase of my AR-410 upper. Now I'm digging deeper, learning more, and setting up for reloading 410 in general. I ordered and received regular 2.5" hulls from BPI. Dammit, I should have ordered different wads at the same time. These "Stretch Wads", with their cushion section, are quite limiting. I'll get that done.

Regarding the 2" shells, I didn't want to "jump through hoops" to figure out how to ship these back without going to jail, plus my stubbornness makes me want to see if I can make them work. We'll see...

It's all good fun!

EDIT TO ADD: Beautiful shotgun you've got there! Also, thanks for verifying the Claybuster wads are good. I've gotten a few Winchester AA-HS shells to load now, plus I kinda think those wads might also work in the Fiocchi hulls.

I used to be a really good shot with a shotgun. I hadn't done any wing shooting in many years though, and last time out proved I've lost the skill. Anything not sitting stone dead still will be entirely safe from harm from my little 410! ' :~(

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Hey guys!! Somewhat surprisingly, Ballistic Products just got back to me with some freshly cooked up, lab tested load data for 410--> 2" hulls. PM me with your e-mail if you would like me to send you pdf copies!

We had been entertaining the idea of a 2" load with a nitro card. Their load with a nitro card specs to use THREE of them. Wonder why? Column height, or pressure capture/sealing??

Vettepilot

[Geezer in NH]

I would knock the primers out of the 2-inch shells and save them for the 2 1/2's. Then throw the 2-inch in the trash.

[Vettepilot]

I would knock the primers out of the 2-inch shells and save them for the 2 1/2's. Then throw the 2-inch in the trash.

I've got 50 bucks worth of 2" shells here. (200) That would make for some amazingly expensive primers. If I can't make them work in my semi-auto, which is a question at this point, I'll load them up for my brother in law to use in his single shot 410 for plinking. But they will get used...

Off topic, but I'll throw it out there: another little project I'll try at some point is to see if brass 410 shells will cycle out of the semi-auto 410 shotguns. Anyone here try it??

Edit to add: My idea is that they might hang up due to the sharp, thin shell mouth on a brass 410 shell with an OS card. To alleviate that, my idea is to include a .395 round ball crimped into the mouth as part of the payload. Various cartridges have been used to create brass 410 shells. My choice is 9.3x74r, which work very well. I did some just for fun for my brother-in-law a few years ago. Now, with the difficulty of finding 410 hulls, and the expense, I think they are a very good idea!

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

So, a point many people fail to consider is this: a 2 1/2" shotgun shell only measures that length when it is empty or has been fired. They are about 1/4" shorter when loaded, which is 2 1/4, which is convenient as the max magazine length for most AR 's is 2.26". Factory loaded shells are kind of all over the map on actual, measured length. By using a "short as possible" roll crimp on these two inch problem hulls of mine, the loaded length was just under 2". Considering all this, I had at least a little faith that they might work, as they are not that far out of expected specs/variances/tolerances. Knowing if they would work will be helpful both in the case of being able to use these new hulls of mine, but also in the event I want to save 2 1/2" hulls in the future by cutting off damaged fold crimps, like I sometimes do for 20 and 12 gauge.

Did it work? Well, it appears so. Here's what happened:

I normally like to have some factory rounds to test out a new gun, but that wasn't possible in this case. So I loaded up a big hand full of Fiocchi 2.5" shells with a good, proven load. I also loaded up a handful of these 2" hulls. 13.5 grains of Lil Gun, a 1/8" nitro over powder wad, 191 grains of shot, a clear overshot card, and a roll crimp, just as had been pondered/discussed here.

The 2.5" shells, and the 410 AR upper worked flawlessly. It ejects the shells out with authority! Right at 3:00, which is perfect, but it flings them more than twice as far as rifle brass. The gun is GREAT FUN and I highly recommend it!

So then, having proved that, ("Proofed"?), I loaded up one of the two inchers. It shot/sounded fine, and ejected as expected. That load seems perfectly viable and the gun locked back on empty as it should. Then I loaded up two shells. The second shell jammed. WHOOPS! Well, we thought that might happen, and I thought "End of story." But then I thought "what if that was a fluke?" So I loaded two more and tried again. IT WORKED PERFECTLY!

So, I loaded up a mag of the 2" shells and had at it. Full function--> no issues nor problems.

Your Mileage May Vary!

Again, I HIGHLY recommend the gun, and if you have the need, try two inch shells.

Thanks to all that contributed.

Vettepilot

[W.R.Buchanan]

Does the barrel of this gun have a significant funnel at the chamber mouth to insure that shells feed into the chamber smoothly? Going to be interesting to see if the gun will run at all. Pics would help?

If it has got a decent "feed cone" I don't see why a 1 3/4" long shell shouldn't feed OK as well.

But I would start your testing of the gun with some Factory Winchester AA's to see if the gun will run right. If it won't then you immediately have eliminated the ammo as the problem. If it won't run with AA's It probably won't run with anything else either..

Any of your home loaded ammo needs to have a Serious Radius on the front of the Hull after its crimped. My Pacific DL266 takes about 1/4" of hull to make a Folded Crimp, and whereas there are some bad looking ones in any given run, they should look like this when done whether they are Folded or Rolled.

Randy

[Vettepilot]

I think you missed the jist of my entire last post there Randy.

I normally do like to test any new gun, but especially a semi-auto, with factory shells. But due to unavailability, that was not possible this time.

However, the gun cycled and performed perfectly with both my handloaded 2.5" shells, and my handloaded 2" shells!! I am very happy with it. Even more so for the fact that this came with cylinder bore/flash hider, plus 3 screw in chokes. Cool!!

In our whole time shooting it on Sunday, we had one failure to chamber. And it's new; right out of the box!

Vettepilot

[gunarea]

Hey Pilot
Good for you! This is how we move forward, someone takes the chance to do something new. My 410 experience has much more failures in development than success but it was still fun playing. That is really all we are actually doing. Life itself is little more than finding out what works, and what don't. Naysayers are the bane of real progress. This thread started off as a question, now some of us are blessed with your empirical results. Tip of my hat to you, good post, good job.
Roy

[Vettepilot]

Thanks! I bought this AR-410 on a lark. Virtually all the reviews said it was great fun, and it really is cool and fun to shoot. Something different...

Now to try wax slugs in it, which we just love to make/shoot, then some buckshot loads. Then there's the brass shells to make and try. I've got a .395" round ball mold on the way for those. Anyone got an idea for crimping those round balls into the brass shells? I'm hoping one of the Lee Factory Crimp Dies will be the right size.

When you're a "maker", and DIY'er, the projects never end...

Thanks,
Vettepilot

[W.R.Buchanan]

I think you missed the jist of my entire last post there Randy.

I normally do like to test any new gun, but especially a semi-auto, with factory shells. But due to unavailability, that was not possible this time.

However, the gun cycled and performed perfectly with both my handloaded 2.5" shells, and my handloaded 2" shells!! I am very happy with it. Even more so for the fact that this came with cylinder bore/flash hider, plus 3 screw in chokes. Cool!!

In our whole time shooting it on Sunday, we had one failure to chamber. And it's new; right out of the box!

Vettepilot

Sorry I missed that. good Luck Randy

[Vettepilot]

@Cap'n Morgan:

Again, thanks for running that Quickload sim for me. Something new: I ran across a BPI load, which is 3 x #000 buckshot over 18 grains of Lil Gun. Pressure is reported as 12,100 psi, velocity 1540 fps. I thought "Wow! 18 grains?" I wonder how that one would stack up/compare in Quickload, done as a Marlin 444 like you did before??

Thanks,
Vettepilot