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Thread: Need 410 load data for two inch hulls!

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Need 410 load data for two inch hulls!

    Hi,

    I mistakenly ordered some Cheddite 2" hulls in 410. I'm gonna use them; not hassle with sending them back. But I can't find load data...

    Anyone have Cheddite/Fiocchi 2" hull 410 data? I have H110 and Lil Gun, but would appreciate any/all data.

    Note that I have the BPI small bore shotgun manual. Almost nothing there...

    I got them from BPI. I've gone through their data and only found two loads---> that don't suit me and/or my components. I wrote them for data, and they only sent me 2.5" data. I've written them again...

    Meanwhile, I sure could use data-- today.

    Thanks!
    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Hogtamer's Avatar
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    Hodgdon has nothing on their reloading website.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Yes, I know. I had already checked there. Lyman's shotgun manual = nothing either.

    :~(

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    In my .44 Garden Gun, loading .444 Marlin brass cases, card and fiber wads and 1/2 oz. of shot I use 13 grains of #2400 or 15 grains of IMR4227.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy slownsteady22's Avatar
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    Ballistic products Small bore manual has 2 410 2 inch hull load data both use alliant 410 powder.

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    I bought some of these not long ago in 2" for knock around snake loads with my various .410 yard guns here in swampy/snakey MS.
    Lived in BHC and Kingman for 27 years Mr. Havasu. Miss it dearly. I used 13.7-14 grains 2400 cut down some generic wads loaded directly over powder no card. I use 12# shot .33 oz w/card over the shot and roll crimp. Great load out to 15 yards for snakes etc.
    Your Chedittes are primed from the seller like mine?
    Hang on to them and keep them for that purpose called for. .410 hulls are scarce and expensive for the forseeable future.
    “You should tell someone what you know. There should be a history, so that men can learn from it.

    He smiled. “Men do not learn from history. Each generation believes itself brighter than the last, each believes it can survive the mistakes of the older ones. Each discovers each old thing and they throw up their hands and say ‘See! Look what I have found! Look upon what I know!’ And each believes it is something new.

    Louis L’Amour

    The Californios

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah, they're new, primed hulls I got from BPI. They were not cheap. I was SO PISSED when they arrived and I found that they were TWO INCH! My mistake on the order. I just saw "2" and quickly ordered 2 bags. I never thought for a second they would be selling actual 2" hulls. I've never even heard of them except for some oddball loaded rounds from Europe. But it clearly says "2" 8mm brass hulls", and in my rush and excitement, I friggin' bought them...

    BPI finally answered my e-mail. Those two crappy loads are all the data they have. I searched all my manuals, plus searched the net for 3 days, plus asked in several forums. No data...

    I'm so pissed/bummed. I've got a brand new, much awaited 410 upper for my AR, and no way to shoot it/try it out!!

    :~(

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy gunarea's Avatar
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    410 loads

    Hello Pilot
    2" 410 is a regular thing for me. Your situation is out there for me. The autoloader platform is not friendly for 2" 410. The pressure and gas volume threshold can be met but balance is more of a challenge with the shorter case. The data pool for 2" is small but in fairness, you do not offer much in propellant choices. My pet load in 2" for autoloader uses Promo. It is possible that H110 can be usable but I have no empirical data for you. 410 is the fussiest shotgun to load for. The approach to develop quality results is vastly different than say a good 10 gauge load. It is much more fruitful to adapt to 410, than expect 410 to perform with whatever you can get. When you find 410 in competition, it is not due to it being easier or better. It is also doubtful you will find much commercial loaded ammunition in real competition. If you are serious, comb through the files for helpful information. I will be happy to give you benefit of my forty some years feeding this aggravating little shatgun.
    Roy
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by gunarea; 04-20-2022 at 07:37 AM. Reason: spelling
    Shoot often, Shoot well.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Half Dog's Avatar
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    I checked the Lyman 2nd edition shotshell handbook and it only mentions 3 and 2-1/2” shells for the 410. I know this doesn’t help much but I wish you luck in your quest for knowledge.
    Last edited by Half Dog; 04-20-2022 at 01:12 PM. Reason: Senior moment
    The sooner I fall behind...the more time I have to catch up with

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    I imagine you could load them to 2 1/2” data and instead of crimping leave them full length and put a spot of wax in the end to seal.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks guys. Yeah, I have something like 20 reloading manuals here but no 2" data.

    Later today I'll play with some components and see if I can come up with anything. Like maybe the powder and wad from a published load, with cut down petals/payload and a short roll crimp maybe. Something...

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunarea View Post
    Hello Pilot
    2" 410 is a regular thing for me. Your situation is out there for me. The autoloader platform is not friendly for 2" 410. The pressure and gas volume threshold can be met but balance is more of a challenge with the shorter case. The data pool for 2" is small but in fairness, you do not offer much in propellant choices. My pet load in 2" for autoloader uses Promo. It is possible that H110 can be usable but I have no empirical data for you. 410 is the fussiest shotgun to load for. The approach to develop quality results is vastly different than say a good 10 gauge load. It is much more fruitful to adapt to 410, than expect 410 to perform with whatever you can get. When you find 410 in competition, it is not due to it being easier or better. It is also doubtful you will find much commercial loaded ammunition in real competition. If you are serious, comb through the files for helpful information. I will be happy to give you benefit of my forty some years feeding this aggravating little shatgun.
    Roy
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	410 005.JPG 
Views:	16 
Size:	146.9 KB 
ID:	299280
    If you care to share your data, I would be happy to check it out. Please feel free to PM me if you're uncomfortable posting the info in open forum. I've got 50$ worth of new Cheddite 2" hulls that are useless to me at this point. If I have to buy a different powder, so be it. In addition to H110 and Lil Gun, I have H4227, 2400, and many other shotgun powders for 12 gauge. None of the newer powders like E3, Steel, Promo, etc. though.

    Thanks!
    Vettepilot
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 04-20-2022 at 03:40 PM.
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Another problem is I can't find any loads, at all, with nitro over powder wads in 410 instead of plastic wads, to try to extrapolate from.

    With a charge of 13.5 grains of Lil Gun, (a bit hot maybe), then a tight fitting nitro over powder wad, I can fit 191 grains of shot (7/16 ounce) with room for a thin over shot card and a roll crimp in these 2" shells. But would that be a safe load?? I would think so, but with no data to correlate loads with card wads versus loads with plastic, who knows??

    Using these BPI "410 Stretch" plastic wads, I would have to cut the petals, and would only have room for 115 grains of shot. Pitiful... However, that's 1/4 ounce, which is what many slug loads are...

    ???

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Your 13.5 grains of LilGun should be safe. Card and fiber wads generally develop lower pressure than plastic wads which seal effectively. In my .44 Garden Gun I use any standard pressure Group 1 load for the .44-40 Winchester, which is safe in the 1873 Winchester or Colt Single Action with 215 grain bullet, instead loading a half ounce of shot in a 2.25" brass case formed from .303 British or .444 Marlin.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Well, that gives me a touch more confidence. A 13.5 gr Lil Gun charge is safe with a plastic wad, a fold crimp, and a 1/2 ounce payload of shot.

    The overpowder nitro card should lower pressure. The roll crimp should lower pressure. The 7/16 ounce versus 1/2 ounce shot load should lower pressure. So it should be ok, right???

    If one more person concurs with personal experience, I'll load up a few, close my eyes, and shoot 'em!!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    if ballistic is selling the shells I would think they should at least include it in load of the week

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Send an email to Cheddite …..
    Regards
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah, BPI only shows two wimpy loads for 2" Cheddite hulls, both in all their literature, and when I asked them. They said they would pose the question to the "Load of the Week" staff for future consideration. That's ok, but doesn't help me now...

    Any further thoughts on my proposed 13.5 grain Lil Gun with nitro card and 191 grains (7/16 oz.) of shot load? I'd really like to try out my new gun!!

    Thanks,
    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  19. #19
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Just for an example I ran a Quickload test for a .444 Marlin with 13.5 grains Lil gun and a 200 grains bullet to simulate a .410 shotgun load.
    With the bullet seated deep enough to leave no free space over the powder, the pressure was 12.500 psi (max psi for a .410 is 13.500)
    Muzzle velocity would be around 1170 fps.

    I would not be afraid to shoot this load in a .410, replacing the bullet with a similar weight of shot.
    Of course, the choice is yours, but sometimes you are forced to leave the safe harbor of loading manuals and rely on experience and common sense instead.

    Different wads and primers can affect pressures some, but they will still be well within safe limits as I see it.
    Again, the choice is yours.
    Cap'n Morgan

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks so much for the answers and insights guys. And extra thanks Cap'n Morgan for taking the time to run that Quickload sim.

    You've all given me enough confidence, along with my own studies and knowledge to give this a go. Thanks again!!

    Well, one always must make allowances for good ole "Murphy", lest one be unpleasantly surprised or disappointed. The next thing I'll likely find is that the load itself will be fine, but the semi-auto won't like that shell length!!

    We'll see....

    Thanks,
    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check