Black powder measure?

[greenjoytj]

I dispense BP with:

Redding 3BR powder measure.
It’s fast and accurate, my favourite dispenser. I do disassemble and clean it after dispensing BP and re-wax it with a high quality car wax to help prevent rusting. So far no rust.

RCBS Chargemaster 1500 electronic dispenser and digital scale combo.
Works great but it’s slow particularly for large charges.

Lyman 55 BP measure.
It works just as accurate as the my Redding but harder to adjust.
The adjustment system is very odd by today’s standards of micrometer adjusters.
Which explains why I often read about people that own several Lyman 55’s and keep them adjusted for specific powders.
Not surprised the Lyman stopped making this measure.
Watch for rust occurring in the iron frame, requires a complete disassembly and cleaning after each use. I had vacuumed out mine put it away for a year or two. When I checked it a small amount of rust was in the iron frame at both end bearing surfaces but none in the main powder cavity area.

LEE dippers along with a digital scale and a powder trickler.
Depending on the charge to be used the system is surprisingly fast.
A custom made desired charge weight specific dipper would speed the powder dispensing process if using this syetem.

[Tazman1602]

OK it’s been a while since I loaded any black or pyrodex but last I knew BP and substitutions were measured by VOLUME and NOT weight….what am I missing here guys because I’m getting fixin’ to load 45-70 and 45-90 and I do_not want to really screw things up or go bang in a bad way….

Art

[Hossfly]

I think all measures thro a volume, to know the weight you have to weigh it.

[indian joe]

OK it’s been a while since I loaded any black or pyrodex but last I knew BP and substitutions were measured by VOLUME and NOT weight….what am I missing here guys because I’m getting fixin’ to load 45-70 and 45-90 and I do_not want to really screw things up or go bang in a bad way….

Art

ok I will kick the hornets' nest for ya....

If you think about it most powder charges are measured by volume as they are dispensed - smokeless measures for safety sake we calibrate by weighing at the start and the safety conscious among us will check a charge on the scale periodically just in case something moved (I weigh check every tenth one) - start messing with stuff like bullseye and red dot in small cases and a couple grains extra can result in an ambulance visit . The first reloading I ever did was shotgun ballistite in a 32/20 - we took a sample of powder along with our load spec to the local chemist shop and got the dispensing pharmacist to weigh a charge for us, put it carefully into a gel capsule to take home and we cut a bullet shell measure to hold the exact same volume as he had weighed out - later when we changed to more suitable powders I bought a quality scale and loaded many thousands of rounds (32/20,44/40, 303/22) using homemade scoop measures calibrated by scale. Never had a problem - later years as stuff got cheaper and I got more cash I bought a good rotary measure for my smokeless loading - but if you dont have a scale you should not be allowed have a measure (for smokeeless powders)

Blackpowder being what it is, a couple grains extra, even in small cases is no big deal safety wise, so we can skip the scales if we so desire.
Whatever way you want to twist it grains is a unit measure of weight NOT volume (CC is volume - we see that marked on the LEE dipper measures) so when someone hands you a blackpowder measure with grains marked on it - someone, somewhere, sometime, calibrated that thing by either weighing charges into it OR taking an educated guess based on the volume of it. Happily most blackpowder density (weight per volume) is close anyhow - seems like swiss and wano are a tad more dense than Goex and most homemade is less dense again than Goex - but we can safely fill a case with any brand (of BLACKPOWDER) without need of an ambulance visit.
I load ungraphited powder (have done that for over 25 years) that needs a little more care and attention filling a scoop measure to get consistent velocity (doesnt matter much with plinker loads or a muzzleloader or anything shot under 100yards)
I get Extreme spread in the range of 20 to 50 FPS doing that (maybe sneaks a little higher sometimes) and is as good as most smokeless loads - for bigger cases like 45/70 where I am trying for accuracy at longer ranges or trying to squeeze the best off the sandbags at 100yards, I can get that ES down into single digit (under 10 FPS) If I do everything carefully and weigh my charges - reason enough for ME .........

Understand weighing is not a safety issue, blackpowder cases were designed to be safe when they filled to the base of the boolit plus a little compression with appropriate granulation of BLACKPOWDER - you can load em like that (eyeballing it) and have a lot of fun shooting - blow your head off doing the same thing with smokeless!

disclaimer - I have no experience whatsoever with pyrodex or any other substitute powder. Follow the directions on the can for those .........

[ascast]

I use a Belding & Mull or Lyman 55. The Ideal #5 is the same as the Lyman 55 but with cast iron hopper if your worried about that. I don't think it matters. I think if static electricity could set off BP we would have seen it by now. But do not rub any on a hairy bigfoot.

[ascast]

I have a spare Ideal #6 if you want to duplex load.

[Nobade]

I think the whole volume thing came about because of Pyrodex. At least I have never heard it mentioned before that stuff hit the market. The idea is, it will equal the power of black powder for an equal volume. But that volume weighs less than the same volume of black powder. So if you want to load say a 45-70 with pyrodex, you either use a measure calibrated for black powder and set it to 70 grains, which will throw a lighter charge of Pyrodex, or use an adjustable measure, fill it with black powder, and adjust it to throw 70 grains. Then dump that out and use Pyrodex, and don't weigh it because it will weigh a lot less.

[greenjoytj]

As Noblade mention above substitute BP weighs less than real BP for an equal volume.
For substitute black powder measure by volume, then weight that volume to to discover its weight. Make several volume throws and weigh then to find the average weight.

[Wayne Smith]

Yup, it is the substitute powders that cause the confusion. They are significantly less dense than black powder. Thus the confusion in measuring them and the use of 'grains volume' - a misnomer if there ever was one. "Grain" has always been and is a measure of weight, there is no such thing as a 'grains volume'.

Powder, black and smokeless, is measured in grains of weight, one grain equaling 1/7000 of a pound. (Just to confuse things further, I don't know 'drams' - is a dram a measure of weight or volume?). Pyrodex and the other substitutes, being less dense, was going to be a problem because people might use weight measures and significantly overload their gun. So we were told to use the weight markings of volume measures to measure an equal volume of the substitutes. Reasonable and clear. But as this permeated down through magazine articles and conversations around the campfire ... confusion occurred. Especially when the person talking did not realize the markings on the measure indicated weight of black powder.

It has nothing to do with measuring by weight or volume, powder is routinely weighted to check the volumetric measure and we measure each charge by volume, not weight, unless we are using a long stick powder and carefully adding to the volume to get the right weight.

[Don McDowell]

Way back when Pyrodex first came out and Hogdons bought it out, in their little reloading manuals they gave the instructions to use it on a volume basis in a black powder measure, and even printed a chart to give approximate weights when thrown from a blackpowder measure.
Hit the rewind button back 150 years and the literature put out by Sharps and Remington, they mentioned both methods of powder charges. Both of those along with other books written in the day pointed out the importance for accuracy sake of weighing the powder charges especially in long range shooting. Sharps even went so far as to print in their catalog the conversions from Apothecary to drams and grains weight. Several of the books in print at the time listed the best places to get the quality scales.
No there's not a safety factor in throwing black powder charges by weight or volume, but if your concerned about finding the accuracy from a given lot of powder you'll weigh it out. That's not to say that very careful and repeatable process in dropping bp charges from a volume measure can't happen, but weighing each charge, and adjusting each charge to the same weight isn't that hard of a thing to do.
And I can't help but wonder if weighing out the fake bp aka substitutes might not help some of the accuracy woes that many have when shooting that stuff.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Way back when Pyrodex first came out and Hogdons bought it out, in their little reloading manuals they gave the instructions to use it on a volume basis in a black powder measure, and even printed a chart to give approximate weights when thrown from a blackpowder measure.
Hit the rewind button back 150 years and the literature put out by Sharps and Remington, they mentioned both methods of powder charges. Both of those along with other books written in the day pointed out the importance for accuracy sake of weighing the powder charges especially in long range shooting. Sharps even went so far as to print in their catalog the conversions from Apothecary to drams and grains weight. Several of the books in print at the time listed the best places to get the quality scales.
No there's not a safety factor in throwing black powder charges by weight or volume, but if your concerned about finding the accuracy from a given lot of powder you'll weigh it out. That's not to say that very careful and repeatable process in dropping bp charges from a volume measure can't happen, but weighing each charge, and adjusting each charge to the same weight isn't that hard of a thing to do.
And I can't help but wonder if weighing out the fake bp aka substitutes might not help some of the accuracy woes that many have when shooting that stuff.

Wisdom right there.

Kenny W

[Tazman1602]

Thanks Indian Joe and all the rest. I’ve reloade smokeless for 45 years but have always been a bit wary of black. That stems from an incident in the mid 70’s involving a cheap cap and ball pistol and two….ahhh, cute girls I was trying to impress….when I looked finally just the wood grip was left in my hand. Mom almost killed me when she opened a cabinet and the breech-plug was sticking out of the wall inside the cabinet. I’ve always checked loads by weight every ten rounds or so with smokeless, I’ll let you know how my loads turn out.

Art

[Idaho45guy]

Thanks Indian Joe and all the rest. I’ve reloade smokeless for 45 years but have always been a bit wary of black. That stems from an incident in the mid 70’s involving a cheap cap and ball pistol and two….ahhh, cute girls I was trying to impress….when I looked finally just the wood grip was left in my hand. Mom almost killed me when she opened a cabinet and the breech-plug was sticking out of the wall inside the cabinet. I’ve always checked loads by weight every ten rounds or so with smokeless, I’ll let you know how my loads turn out.

Art

That sounds like a great story!

[Tazman1602]

That sounds like a great story!

Oh boy….so, those of you old enough to remember, up here just below the Mackinaw bridge in Michigan we had a store called Giantway, it was the only “big store” in the county back then say around 1974. Along with groceries etc, they also sold hunting supplies, Winnie 94’s ($99), ammo, and they also sold these “do it yourself” black powder guns cap and ball or flinters. Barrel, lock, and normally a cheap piece of maple which we would “hog out” to fit all the parts into. Once done (remember my buddies and I were like 16 and we HAD all the answers)…and knew nothing about measuring powder — Fess Parker never measured…as Dan’l Boone he dumped powder, patched a ball and rammed it home, fired every time.

This usually worked out pretty good and we were Kings of the north, dumping powder, ramming a ball, and BANG! Lots of smoke and only God knew where that ball hit but it was fun! One day a couple of local girls were over to the house and they were, well, VERY cute. One of them spotted my prized cap and ball and asked if it was real and did it actually shoot? Of course it did! Then the girl with the big eyes and large…..smile….said the famous last words….”Why don’t you show us”? I wasn’t from Missouri but those…..words….lit me off. Grab the powder flask, balls, wads and cap and off we went.

To the front porch and I was thinking “does it shoot— of course it does and I’m Fixin’ to show them!” Half cock the hammer, turn pistol barrel side up and add some powder. Doe eyes was smiling at me now….if she wants to see “bang” I’m gonna show her……dump a little more powder….she’s still smiling so dump a little more, patch the ball and ram it home…..hmmmm, ramrod was really long tamping the ball this time but I’m sure it’s ok.

Put a primer on, take aim at the barn…..and just before I squeezed one off I thought “that powder MIGHT be a bit much”……..doe eyes smiled at me again and went inside the kitchen to watch through the window. I closed my eyes, lifted that pistol as far away from my head as I could, turned my head, closed my eyes and squeezed…

I thought a danged atomic bomb went off, heard something smash into the outside kitchen wall behind me, felt an awful recoil in my hand and couldn’t see a thing because of all the smoke. The thought “hey that was groovy” go through my head, looked up and all that was left was a bit of the wooden pistol grip in my hand. Only Jesus himself knew where the barrel went but behind me was a bit of a hole in the siding….no one will ever know….

The girls thought I was crazy (true, I had only one single thought in my mind at that age…) and left, I thanked God I wasn’t dead, but the next morning when mom went to get coffee and I heard her say “What the hell is THAT”! I knew I was in trouble….the barrel plug went right through the wall, through the cabinet, and was sticking out of it right where her favorite coffee cup USED to be…unfortunately I was the only one who had a black powder pistol and she guessed what had gone on. Only Jesus Christ himself saved me from getting beat to death that day and I promptly got some magazines that showed how to measure powder and load them properly. Never again did I “Dan’l Boone” a black powder load and that gentlemen is a true story about how….

Before one can get old and wise, one must first be young and stupid. It was rare that I saw those girls again…hope you enjoyed,

Art

[Idaho45guy]

Oh boy….so, those of you old enough to remember, up here just below the Mackinaw bridge in Michigan we had a store called Giantway, it was the only “big store” in the county back then say around 1974. Along with groceries etc, they also sold hunting supplies, Winnie 94’s ($99), ammo, and they also sold these “do it yourself” black powder guns cap and ball or flinters. Barrel, lock, and normally a cheap piece of maple which we would “hog out” to fit all the parts into. Once done (remember my buddies and I were like 16 and we HAD all the answers)…and knew nothing about measuring powder — Fess Parker never measured…as Dan’l Boone he dumped powder, patched a ball and rammed it home, fired every time.

This usually worked out pretty good and we were Kings of the north, dumping powder, ramming a ball, and BANG! Lots of smoke and only God knew where that ball hit but it was fun! One day a couple of local girls were over to the house and they were, well, VERY cute. One of them spotted my prized cap and ball and asked if it was real and did it actually shoot? Of course it did! Then the girl with the big eyes and large…..smile….said the famous last words….”Why don’t you show us”? I wasn’t from Missouri but those…..words….lit me off. Grab the powder flask, balls, wads and cap and off we went.

To the front porch and I was thinking “does it shoot— of course it does and I’m Fixin’ to show them!” Half cock the hammer, turn pistol barrel side up and add some powder. Doe eyes was smiling at me now….if she wants to see “bang” I’m gonna show her……dump a little more powder….she’s still smiling so dump a little more, patch the ball and ram it home…..hmmmm, ramrod was really long tamping the ball this time but I’m sure it’s ok.

Put a primer on, take aim at the barn…..and just before I squeezed one off I thought “that powder MIGHT be a bit much”……..doe eyes smiled at me again and went inside the kitchen to watch through the window. I closed my eyes, lifted that pistol as far away from my head as I could, turned my head, closed my eyes and squeezed…

I thought a danged atomic bomb went off, heard something smash into the outside kitchen wall behind me, felt an awful recoil in my hand and couldn’t see a thing because of all the smoke. The thought “hey that was groovy” go through my head, looked up and all that was left was a bit of the wooden pistol grip in my hand. Only Jesus himself knew where the barrel went but behind me was a bit of a hole in the siding….no one will ever know….

The girls thought I was crazy (true, I had only one single thought in my mind at that age…) and left, I thanked God I wasn’t dead, but the next morning when mom went to get coffee and I heard her say “What the hell is THAT”! I knew I was in trouble….the barrel plug went right through the wall, through the cabinet, and was sticking out of it right where her favorite coffee cup USED to be…unfortunately I was the only one who had a black powder pistol and she guessed what had gone on. Only Jesus Christ himself saved me from getting beat to death that day and I promptly got some magazines that showed how to measure powder and load them properly. Never again did I “Dan’l Boone” a black powder load and that gentlemen is a true story about how….

Before one can get old and wise, one must first be young and stupid. It was rare that I saw those girls again…hope you enjoyed,

Art

Well told! Thank you!

[indian joe]

Way back when Pyrodex first came out and Hogdons bought it out, in their little reloading manuals they gave the instructions to use it on a volume basis in a black powder measure, and even printed a chart to give approximate weights when thrown from a blackpowder measure.
Hit the rewind button back 150 years and the literature put out by Sharps and Remington, they mentioned both methods of powder charges. Both of those along with other books written in the day pointed out the importance for accuracy sake of weighing the powder charges especially in long range shooting. Sharps even went so far as to print in their catalog the conversions from Apothecary to drams and grains weight. Several of the books in print at the time listed the best places to get the quality scales.
No there's not a safety factor in throwing black powder charges by weight or volume, but if your concerned about finding the accuracy from a given lot of powder you'll weigh it out. That's not to say that very careful and repeatable process in dropping bp charges from a volume measure can't happen, but weighing each charge, and adjusting each charge to the same weight isn't that hard of a thing to do.
And I can't help but wonder if weighing out the fake bp aka substitutes might not help some of the accuracy woes that many have when shooting that stuff.

I have not shot subs but the couple I have seen used at the range (Pyrodex and one other) didnt look like they would flow in a measure near as well as commercial BP - there
would nearly have to be an accuracy improvement from weighing charges.

Also have not been able to get scale accuracy of charges from scoop measures or spout on a flask setups - get close sometimes if yre meticulous with process but then its as slow (at least) as using a scale. The electronic scale has speeded up my weighing heaps.

[GregLaROCHE]

I been using my old orange Lyman 55 for near 40 years, never an issue.

I’ve been using my 55 for a few years now with BP. At first I wondered, but after doing research, I decided there wasn’t much more to worry about as any other part of reloading. If someone is worried about the plastic and static electricity, why not run a ground wire to discharge any. That’s what is supposed to be done with metal airplanes when refueling.

[GregLaROCHE]

Thanks Indian Joe and all the rest. I’ve reloade smokeless for 45 years but have always been a bit wary of black. That stems from an incident in the mid 70’s involving a cheap cap and ball pistol and two….ahhh, cute girls I was trying to impress….when I looked finally just the wood grip was left in my hand. Mom almost killed me when she opened a cabinet and the breech-plug was sticking out of the wall inside the cabinet. I’ve always checked loads by weight every ten rounds or so with smokeless, I’ll let you know how my loads turn out.

Art

Please give us the details of the breech plug. Sounds interesting.

[Lead pot]

Oh boy….so, those of you old enough to remember, up here just below the Mackinaw bridge in Michigan we had a store called Giantway, it was the only “big store” in the county back then say around 1974. Along with groceries etc, they also sold hunting supplies, Winnie 94’s ($99), ammo, and they also sold these “do it yourself” black powder guns cap and ball or flinters. Barrel, lock, and normally a cheap piece of maple which we would “hog out” to fit all the parts into. Once done (remember my buddies and I were like 16 and we HAD all the answers)…and knew nothing about measuring powder — Fess Parker never measured…as Dan’l Boone he dumped powder, patched a ball and rammed it home, fired every time.

This usually worked out pretty good and we were Kings of the north, dumping powder, ramming a ball, and BANG! Lots of smoke and only God knew where that ball hit but it was fun! One day a couple of local girls were over to the house and they were, well, VERY cute. One of them spotted my prized cap and ball and asked if it was real and did it actually shoot? Of course it did! Then the girl with the big eyes and large…..smile….said the famous last words….”Why don’t you show us”? I wasn’t from Missouri but those…..words….lit me off. Grab the powder flask, balls, wads and cap and off we went.

To the front porch and I was thinking “does it shoot— of course it does and I’m Fixin’ to show them!” Half cock the hammer, turn pistol barrel side up and add some powder. Doe eyes was smiling at me now….if she wants to see “bang” I’m gonna show her……dump a little more powder….she’s still smiling so dump a little more, patch the ball and ram it home…..hmmmm, ramrod was really long tamping the ball this time but I’m sure it’s ok.

Put a primer on, take aim at the barn…..and just before I squeezed one off I thought “that powder MIGHT be a bit much”……..doe eyes smiled at me again and went inside the kitchen to watch through the window. I closed my eyes, lifted that pistol as far away from my head as I could, turned my head, closed my eyes and squeezed…

I thought a danged atomic bomb went off, heard something smash into the outside kitchen wall behind me, felt an awful recoil in my hand and couldn’t see a thing because of all the smoke. The thought “hey that was groovy” go through my head, looked up and all that was left was a bit of the wooden pistol grip in my hand. Only Jesus himself knew where the barrel went but behind me was a bit of a hole in the siding….no one will ever know….

The girls thought I was crazy (true, I had only one single thought in my mind at that age…) and left, I thanked God I wasn’t dead, but the next morning when mom went to get coffee and I heard her say “What the hell is THAT”! I knew I was in trouble….the barrel plug went right through the wall, through the cabinet, and was sticking out of it right where her favorite coffee cup USED to be…unfortunately I was the only one who had a black powder pistol and she guessed what had gone on. Only Jesus Christ himself saved me from getting beat to death that day and I promptly got some magazines that showed how to measure powder and load them properly. Never again did I “Dan’l Boone” a black powder load and that gentlemen is a true story about how….

Before one can get old and wise, one must first be young and stupid. It was rare that I saw those girls again…hope you enjoyed,

Art

Art,

Back in those early days, mine started in the 50's those front stuffers were fun and still are for me. The more powder down the barrel the more smoke and ball of fire .
They also shoot a arrow farther than a Bow LOL, yes were very fortunate the good lord watched over us and still is for some.
Yes I hunted in your woods for many years as well as when they opened a special black powder season I think was back in the late 70 or 80's.

[Tazman1602]

Please give us the details of the breech plug. Sounds interesting.

Greg at that time I was 16-17 and didn’t know what a “breechplug” was. I did know there was a “line” on the rear of that percussion barrel and knew it was probably a a separate part but had zero idea how it was attached to the barrel…..

Art