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Thread: Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag.

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag.

    https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/10m...iS4mbCENgK0QsY

    We settle the 10mm vs 44 Mag. debate—and wreck our hands in the process

    BY JOHN B. SNOW | PUBLISHED APR 14, 2022 1:07 PM


    In the great bear-gun debate—10mm vs .44 Mag.—which camp are you in? Without question there’s been a major shift from the .44 Remington Magnum and other fire-belching revolvers toward semiautos chambered in 10mm Auto for those wanting a measure of personal protection against bruins and other potentially dangerous animals. I live on the boundary of grizzly country in southwest Montana and all my local gun stores confirm this trend. Backcountry adventurers, whether they are hunting, fishing, or hiking, are opting for autoloaders over wheel guns.

    A Lighter, More Consistent Shotgun Trigger Pull Can Make You a Better Shot

    You’ve Got to Be Kidding
    Plenty of old-school handgunners scoff at this idea. When comparing the energy of a .44 Magnum to that of a 10mm, there is no competition they insist. In their telling, all those extra rounds in a semiauto 10mm will just give you that many more opportunities to piss off Yogi before he flays you alive.

    Bear Guns By the Numbers

    And if showing off a ballistic chart were all it took to dissuade a would-be ursine assailant, they would certainly be right. A hopped up .44 Mag. load, such as the Buffalo Bore 340-grain +P+ hard cast flat nose bullet generates a whopping 1,533 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. Compare that to their 10mm Auto mono-metal Dangerous Game load that produces 607 foot-pounds of energy with a 190-grain bullet at 1,200 fps. By that yardstick, the 10mm Auto seems pitiful indeed.

    Case closed, right? Not so fast, the 10mm vs .44 Mag. debate isn’t just about ballistics. The problem is you actually have to hit a bear in order to have a chance of stopping it. And in light of a grizzly’s top speed—a shocking 35 mph—that is no easy task. Especially with a hard-kicking handgun torquing on your wrist.

    Bear Gun Shootout: The Drill
    To get a better handle on this debate I enlisted the help of two fellow pistoleros: Sean Murphy, a USPSA Grand Master, and Outdoor Life staff writer Tyler Freel, who by virtue of living in Alaska hunts bears every year. We conducted a live-fire experiment at Gunsite Academy in the form of a simple, but challenging drill. The three of us shot an array of five knockdown steel poppers from far to near to simulate a bear charge. The farthest target was in the center and then we zig-zagged from far left to far right and then to near left and near right to add in erratic motion and increase the stress level. The farthest target was approximately 20 yards away and the closest were about 12 yards downrange. Watch the video above to see the drill for yourself.


    We used four guns for this test. The revolver was a Smith & Wesson 329 PD, which is a Scandium framed .44 Rem. Mag. The great virtue of the 329 PD is its weight. Unloaded it tips the scales at a svelte 23 ounces. I carried this gun for many years while hunting and fishing in Montana, Alaska, Wyoming and Idaho on both my hip and in a chest rig, and I never found it to be burdensome. But its light weight is also its biggest liability. Shooting it with full-house defensive rounds is extremely painful. As the results of our test show, it is much slower and less accurate to boot, despite its excellent, large, and bright fiber-optic front sight.

    The autos we used included the following: Glock G20, equipped with a Surefire X400 Ultra, Aimpoint Acro 2.0 red dot, and KKM barrel (35.4 ounces); Smith & Wesson M&P 10mm M 2.0 with a Trijicon RMR (28.5 ounces); and the Springfield Armory XD-M Elite 3.8” Compact with a Hex Dragonfly red dot, Streamlight TLR-3, and GoGun Gas Pedal (33.6 ounces).

    10mm vs .44 mag data
    The results of our 10mm vs .44 Mag. bear charge drill. Outdoor Life
    Bear Gun Shootout: The .44 Magnum
    During the 10mm vs .44 Mag. test, none of us were looking forward to running the S&W 329 PD with the Hornady 240-grain JHP loads I had brought along. But while our hands were fresh we shot the revolver first. According to Hornady’s data, the XTP bullets from a 7.5-inch barrel clock at 1350 fps and generate 971 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. And I can vouch that you feel every one of the foot-pounds when you pull the 329’s trigger. (I’m glad I didn’t bring the 305-grain hardcast bullets I normally carry in the revolver, which step out at 1,325 fps with 1,189 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.)


    Not only was the muzzle flip difficult to control, but running the revolver quickly was painful as hell. And quickly was a relative term. Our average run on the five-target array was 5.5 seconds with a -1.3 accuracy score. (Meaning we missed an average of 1.3 targets during the drill.) Interestingly, one of the misses was an edge hit that failed to knock over the steel popper, which drove home our collective observation of how difficult the revolver was to control while going for vital hits.


    Bear Gun Shootout: The 10mm Autos
    We all shot the 10mm Autos much better, despite the fact that the webs of our shooting hands were swollen and bruised after running the .44. We alternated through the pistols, running them in no particular order, but recording our impressions after each run. For ammo we ran 180-grain JHPs from Federal and Hornady loaded to similar velocities. Published data gives speeds of 1,275 fps and a muzzle energy of 650 foot-pounds.

    As the chart indicates, the average speeds for the Glock (3.0 seconds), Springfield Armory (3.19 seconds), and the S&W M&P 10mm (3.67 seconds) were vastly superior to what we got with the revolver. Moreover, our accuracy with the autos, which were all fitted with red-dot sights, was much better. Most of the runs were clean with an occasional single dropped target for an overall average accuracy score of -0.3 with each pistol.


    The differences in the speed among the 10mms isn’t surprising. The extra weight in the Glock G20 thanks to the Acro and the X400 light, combined with the custom stippling, make it easy to shoot well and fast. Likewise, the gas pedal on the Springfield Armory XD-M helped it perform better. The stock (other than the red dot) S&W M&P 10mm was lighter and therefore slowest of the lot, though with some better stippling up front and a light on board it would certainly run a bit faster.

    10mm vs .44 Mag.: Pros and Cons
    Prior to the test, all the shooters had been leaning toward the 10mm Auto, and after running the drills we were convinced that our instincts were spot-on. When you weigh the relative advantages and disadvantages of the platforms, we couldn’t bring ourselves to advocate for the .44 Mag.

    .44 Mag. Pros:

    Light Weight
    Packable
    Formidable Muzzle Energy

    44 Mag. Cons:

    Slow
    Less Accurate
    Limited to 6-Rounds
    Slow to Reload
    Painful to Shoot
    Difficult to Master
    Limited Accessories
    10mm Auto Pros:

    Fast
    Accurate
    Higher Magazine Capacity
    Easier to Master
    Less Painful to Shoot
    Easy to Improve Performance by Customization
    Compatible With a Light
    10mm Auto Cons:

    Less Muzzle Energy Per Round
    Slightly Heavier to Carry
    Final Thoughts: 10mm vs .44 Mag.

    It seems that fans of the .44 Magnum for bear protection only have one thing to hang their argument on: muzzle energy. And I don’t mean to discount that. If I had to hit a charging bear with just one bullet, bigger is certainly better. But given that the hits will come more slowly and less frequently, and that with a revolver there are fewer chances to connect—that single advantage becomes less persuasive in the 10mm vs .44 Mag. debate.

    So, yes, the 10mm brings a lot more to the party. It’s quick to deploy, delivers more consistent hits, and with magazines capable of holding 15 rounds (or more) provides more opportunities to kill an attacking bear. A friend of mine who was attacked by a grizzly in Western Montana a few years ago during bow season recalls how the sow had him by the arm and that if he’d had a pistol he could have shot her in the head any number of times. She savaged his arm and shoulder and threw him down a 15-foot cliff, severely injuring him. He now carries a modified Glock G20 everywhere.

    I also think the ability to easily add a light to the 10mm Autos is a big advantage. Though I don’t know of any real-world examples that back this up, it seems that during an attack in low light or darkness that the blinding effect of a weapon light could act as a significant deterrent during a bear encounter. It isn’t impossible to mount a light on a revolver, but .44-Magnum wheelguns built to accept lights are extremely uncommon.


    Finally, there’s the issue of mastery and practice. Put simply: You’ll spend much more time practicing with a 10mm Auto because it isn’t so punishing. Shooting is a perishable, athletic skill and unless one takes the time to establish and maintain competency, those skills will diminish or fail to take root in the first place. And without those skills, a person who finds themselves fighting for their life will be in even greater danger. Viewed through that lens, the more forgiving nature of the 10mm Auto will trump the .44 Magnum every time.
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  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master


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    We have a 44 mag and 10 mm. A 44 mag with a 285 grain or heavier Cast FN will still be my choice.
    I can down load the 44 for "practice" while the 10mm (as much as I like it) will never get the 285 cast going.
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
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    I am with missionary on this one. I have a 5" 629, a 1006, and a Ruger GP100 in 10mm. For bear I would be toting the 44 mag 629. While I love my 10mms I will take the bigger, heavier bullets of the 44 mag anytime. For really big bear no pistol is big enough.
    Bill

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    Wow , shocking!!! So who would have thought a heavier gun shooting a bullet just over half the weight at 80%of the velocity is easier to hit with?? Wow,
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

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    Boolit Grand Master
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    The test was flawed. They should have used a steel .44 Mag with a 6” barrel.

    Having said that, I cannot shoot heavy recoil guns well so I would still pick the 10mm.
    Don Verna


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    My 45acp loads are a 275 from hunter's supply running just over 1000fps in my 7" long slide.
    I can see the point of hits on target are better than misses. Still I'd rather have a 500 something, or atleast a 480 SRH bobbed to 5.5"ish.

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    I'll keep my 5.5" SRH in 454 Cassull with the 310 hard cast. I noticed the Smith has bare sights while all of the pistols wore red dots, real fair accuracy test.
    Steve,

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  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    In my humble opinion, 44 mag revolver trumps 10mm auto simply because the likelihood of a potentially fatal jam is much lower with the wheel gun. I am very comfortable with my 6-1/2” M29 and would always pick it over an autoloader. A 1911 in 45acp is miles ahead of a pointed stick but my second choice would be a Blackhawk in 45 LC.

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    Boolit Master dkf's Avatar
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    Those lightweight alloy .44mag revolvers may be nice to carry but the nice ends when you have to shoot them any amount. I can only imagine shooting max loads with bullets over 300gr out them.

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    Flawed! 3 different 10mm guns against a poor excuse for a 44. I have a 4" Redhawk and a 4" Anaconda as dedicated all steel woods guns. They are not as pleasant to shoot as a 6 inch but I can shoot 100 full house rounds in a range session, which I do. Can't imagine what a 329 PD is for. How are you going to practice with something like that. I practice with what I carry, full house loads.

    I plan on a spine shot from the front and the #503s will go straight through 14 inches of cedar.

    A lot is attitude, if you are prepared and confident you are less likely to have a problem. After many years of signs I finally saw my brown bear. He was taking great pains to go around my camp up North. That's not to say things can't go sideways, we have had 2 cougars go nuts and kill everything in sight in this neighborhood.

    I miss my brown bear. He ran the neighborhood, there weren't any black bears getting into things when he was around.

    EOR LOL
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

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    Boolit Master
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    Apples & Oranges! You don't carry for convenience, you carry to protect yourself so carry something you can hit with, a bear isn't impressed with misses. A 44 magnum with full power loads will take care of you if you have a full size gun, packing a 329 shorty might make you decide to save the last shots for yourself after shooting that first one.
    I like a good 10mm but a practiced hand with a good 44 is better bear medicine.

    Dick

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    Boolit Master Shawlerbrook's Avatar
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    I am Old school so I will take a revolver or a semi auto.

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    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    The test was flawed. They should have used a steel .44 Mag with a 6” barrel.

    Having said that, I cannot shoot heavy recoil guns well so I would still pick the 10mm.
    And these guys definitely got more hits on target faster with the 10mm. That strikes me as important.
    "If everyone is thinking the same thing it means someone is not thinking"

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    Well I will tell you this… I would NOT be carrying a light 44 framed gun… 23oz???? No Way. Of course they tipped the scales inappropriately. I learned that the hard way.. a super red hawk or a Blackhawk, or my ported Taurus would be a way more appropriate choice for a real comparison.

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    You wanna bring a 10mm to this party??? Go ahead! Most people do NOT realize what a mature bear looks like. They loaded the deck completely for that comparison in my opinion.

    Marko
    Last edited by Markopolo; 04-15-2022 at 08:52 AM.
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

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    Boolit Grand Master
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    Good post Marko!!!


    edited to add:

    Frankly, for most of us, we will never encounter a bear that wants to harm us and the only bears we will ever see are black bears. Where I live, a big black bear is 350 lbs. The record bear in MI is 730 lbs (live weight) and it was shot in the Upper Peninsula...not where I live. The bear was shot over a bait pile and was not attacking anyone. The bear hunters I know got 13 bears last year. Six were in my area and 7 in the UP. They ranged from 125 to 275 lbs field dressed.

    If I lived in a place like Marko, I would likely carry a full size .44 Mag as I cannot handle anything more powerful. But here in my area, I carry a Glock 22 as that is what I carry for two legged problems. Some of these discussions are, for the most part and for most people, an excuse to have a new toy. I am involved with a group of bear hunters that runs dogs. The biggest hand gun they carry is a Glock 10mm. Another guy I know who runs with another group of bear hunters used to carry a .357 Mag until he got mauled (He was being a fool and trying to impress the ladies. He walked to within feet of a bear surrounded by dogs to make a point blank head shot.) That fool bought a .500 S&W and he cannot shoot it as the recoil is too much for him.

    Carry the biggest gun you can handle, but if you live east of the Mississippi, a bear charging you is rare unless you do something stupid.
    Last edited by dverna; 04-15-2022 at 09:24 AM.
    Don Verna


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    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I have a S&W 329 niteguard, a 8 3/4” ported Anaconda, and a brand new Glock 20. Use to own a brushed chrome desert eagle 50 AE that would recoil literally above my head by the time it was all out of steam. I’ll take the extra weight of my 35 whelen carbine pump slung over my shoulder all day long. A pistol is better than nothing but I wouldn’t trust my life on a big grizzly with one no mater what caliber or configuration if I had a lightweight rifle to sling over my shoulder. I’ve shot enough deer with the 50 AE and 44 mag rifle to watch them ALL run like they weren’t hit accept one that was back boned. I’d hate to miss a brown bears brain and, or, CNS when it’s on a full charge.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 04-15-2022 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Spelling

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    Look at the name of the author, it's a Snow Job.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

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    Boolit Buddy memtb's Avatar
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    I’m pleased to see that the majority of you experienced shooters chose the 44. I still can’t fathom how ft/lbs energy is mentioned…..as at typical handgun velocities, energy is a pipe dream and means near nothing!

    Yes, with the revolver is more difficult to get more rounds down range. But again, to throw ice water on many shooter’s beliefs, if you must rely on multiple hits to disable/stop your adversary …..you have chosen the wrong cartridge.

    While certainly an in depth article, required much time and ink……it’s a poor effort to offer a true comparison in cartridge/handgun options! JMO

    Oh by the way, give me the 44 “everyday all day”…..unless I can get a 45LC (capable of higher pressure cartridges), .454 or .460! memtb
    You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel

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    Bear Gun Shootout: 10mm vs .44 Mag.

    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    The test was flawed. They should have used a steel .44 Mag with a 6” barrel.

    Having said that, I cannot shoot heavy recoil guns well so I would still pick the 10mm.
    Yeah I don’t doubt that most shooters would do better with the 10mm, but testing only the 329 pretty much guaranteed the outcome.

    BTW, I worry much more about mosquitoes & ticks than bears.
    Last edited by Jtarm; 04-15-2022 at 10:44 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy MGD's Avatar
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    No an expert on bears, but I have never heard of a bear with a bullet energy meter on it. No mention of penetration of dense muscle and heavy bone. Real life isn't a video game. More of a marginal of ineffective cartridge do not equal a larger cartridge. The truth is that any handgun is difficult to shoot well and heavy recoiling handguns are much more difficult to shoot well. Unfortunately this can't be resolved in the gun shop. You must train well and often to develop and maintain the needed proficiency with heavy recoiling handguns. There are no magic bullets (Pun intended). You have to put in the hard work and shoot lots of ammo.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check