The NEW Jerusalem

[augercreek]

Revelation tells us that a new heaven and a new earth will come down. The present eath will melt in feverent heat.
There is no Bible for this but I believe the new earth will be much like the Garden of Eden. One where there was no sin and God enjoyed walking in the cool of the evening with man.
I believe the Bible is literal.
Hell is a place of eternal torment.

I too tend to believe this way. I think hell would be like solitary confinement, leaving one to think i'm the only one here!!!!

[Ickisrulz]

You presume too much; you have no idea of what I've been taught all my life. Nor do you know how old I am so you don't know how long I've been a Christian and you don't know what my personal Bible study has been like.

I can assure you that the Jehovah Witness and a few others have the idea of a temporary hell wrong. The Lake of Fire hell will be the eternal flip side of heaven. Some resurrected folk will have eternal joy in heaven so others will logically have some measure of eternal discomfort and misery in hell. There will be no purgatory, no short term annihilation, nor any other easy way out; as long as heaven lasts so will hell.

If it makes anyone feel easier, everyone should know that the Lake of Fire will not be as deep in every place as it will be in some places because the eternal punishment for things done in the flesh won't be the same for everyone there. I mean, contrary to what a lot of Biblically ignorant hell-fire preachers shout, the punishments of hell will be eternal but they will NOT not be the same for everyone! God's judgements are just and equal punishment for everyone's life would not be just.

Therefore, while all eternal sentences from the Great White Throne of judgements will still be hell, God will not punish "good" lost people the same as slimy two-legged dispensers of human misery like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Lyndon B. Johnson, etc.; a LOT of people don't realise that. (See 2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 20:12)

Eternal torment (even if merely psychological) for a limited amount of sins is unjust and not within the character of God as displayed in the Bible. Even most flawed human beings would not inflict such a thing on their worst enemies. This is the most convincing argument supporting annihilation. Anyone who has read the Bible and understands the love that God has for his creatures, even when they fail and deserve punishments, cannot come away believing that he will torture people for all eternity. That is an insane idea.

The idea of annihilation was not developed by some fringe group or cult as you suggest. We could look at each passage involving the fate of the lost individually to see what it really says. However, you and I have been over this topic before and there isn't much point in redoing it. There are a lot of writings about this subject for free online as well as a modern books written by Edward Fudge that are inexpensive and readily available if someone is interested in exploring this further. Christendom has not always believed that the fate of the lost would be eternal conscious torment nor is it thought to be so by every Christian today.

[dverna]

There are no details about life in heaven wrt to how we will spend our time there. If anyone can point to scripture that says otherwise, please post it. Anything else is pure speculation.

I am sure I am going to heaven so what happens in hell is immaterial to me. It would be more mental masturbation than a useful thing to know. I do not need to know what a quark is to accept it exists...I have the same opinion about hell. It is there and does not concern me. What happens in hell is a silly thing for Christians to argue about IMO. What does it matter?

I have very little confidence in the physical description of heaven as laid out in Rev 21. But again, it does not matter. Maybe John saw what he wrote or maybe it was a dream he thought was real. Does it matter if the main street of heaven is made of gold, silver, concrete or cobblestones? I do not get hung up on details like that.

I have larger challenges to occupy my little pea brain than wondering about what heaven looks like. In fact, the whole of Rev 21 is an affront to being a Christian...it exalts precious metals and stones as something important to God. Just my opinion. I would rather the main street of heaven be a field of sweet smelling freshly cut lush grass...but that is not my choice. It is what it will be.

[Ickisrulz]

There are no details about life in heaven wrt to how we will spend our time there. If anyone can point to scripture that says otherwise, please post it. Anything else is pure speculation.

I am sure I am going to heaven so what happens in hell is immaterial to me. It would be more mental masturbation than a useful thing to know. I do not need to know what a quark is to accept it exists...I have the same opinion about hell. It is there and does not concern me. What happens in hell is a silly thing for Christians to argue about IMO. What does it matter?

I have very little confidence in the physical description of heaven as laid out in Rev 21. But again, it does not matter. Maybe John saw what he wrote or maybe it was a dream he thought was real. Does it matter if the main street of heaven is made of gold, silver, concrete or cobblestones? I do not get hung up on details like that.

I have larger challenges to occupy my little pea brain than wondering about what heaven looks like. In fact, the whole of Rev 21 is an affront to being a Christian...it exalts precious metals and stones as something important to God. Just my opinion. I would rather the main street of heaven be a field of sweet smelling freshly cut lush grass...but that is not my choice. It is what it will be.

There are no details on what we will be doing in heaven. Jesus tells us through parables that those who have been faithful in the "little" things of life, will be given more authority and responsibilities in the afterlife. So, it seems our work will not end, although some of us might be sweeping streets or scrubbing toilets.

The fate of the lost is of utmost importance to me and how I see God. "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" I believe he will.

Precious metals and stones had been used throughout Israel's history to depict the grandeur and value in her relationship with God (e.g., Ark of the Covenant). Revelations followed the same tradition but was never meant to be taken literally, and the original audience would not have done so.

[dannyd]

There are no details on what we will be doing in heaven. Jesus tells us through parables that those who have been faithful in the "little" things of life, will be given more authority and responsibilities in the afterlife. So, it seems our work will not end, although some of us might be sweeping streets or scrubbing toilets.

The fate of the lost is of utmost importance to me and how I see God. "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" I believe he will.

Precious metals and stones had been used throughout Israel's history to depict the grandeur and value in her relationship with God (e.g., Ark of the Covenant). Revelations followed the same tradition but was never meant to be taken literally, and the original audience would not have done so.

Actually Jesus was talking to the Jews, we were not included yet because he was their Messiah.

Your definitely not alone there are a lot of people that can't except the fact there is a Hell or one day there will be Great White Throne judgement. Me I'm just worrying about the Judgment Seat of Christ after the Rapture or gathering away.

[Ickisrulz]

So are you saying anytime Jesus spoke to the Jews, his message has nothing to do with Gentile Christians? If that were true, there wouldn't be much for us would there?

I accept that there will be a judgment and punishment. However, I don't agree with the notion that human beings will be kept alive to torture for all eternity.

God told Adam and Eve that the day they disobeyed him they would (eventually) die. How do you think they understood death?

God did not say, "The day you eat that fruit you will be confined to an everlasting pit where you will be tormented forever and ever." Jesus never said anything like that either and he talks an awful lot about "hell."

[dverna]

So are you saying anytime Jesus spoke to the Jews, his message has nothing to do with Gentile Christians? If that were true, there wouldn't be much for us would there?

I accept that there will be a judgment and punishment. However, I don't agree with the notion that human beings will be kept alive to torture for all eternity.

God told Adam and Eve that the day they disobeyed him they would (eventually) die. How do you think they understood death?

God did not say, "The day you eat that fruit you will be confined to an everlasting pit where you will be tormented forever and ever." Jesus never said anything like that either and he talks an awful lot about "hell."

Well, He did inflict His wrath not just to Adam and Eve but to all mankind after one sin. Women would suffer in child birth, and yet be subjected to her husband and still desire him. Men would till the earth to eat.

Yet, in Ezekiel, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father? When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

A bit of a mixed message about God's fairness.

[dannyd]

So are you saying anytime Jesus spoke to the Jews, his message has nothing to do with Gentile Christians? If that were true, there wouldn't be much for us would there?

I accept that there will be a judgment and punishment. However, I don't agree with the notion that human beings will be kept alive to torture for all eternity.

God told Adam and Eve that the day they disobeyed him they would (eventually) die. How do you think they understood death?

God did not say, "The day you eat that fruit you will be confined to an everlasting pit where you will be tormented forever and ever." Jesus never said anything like that either and he talks an awful lot about "hell."

Jesus message was to his own people the Jews because if they would have accepted him as their messiah there would have been No Christians. The disciples were not call Christians until Acts 11:26 at Antioch, Syria about 42 A.D. All of the Bible is divided in groups and who it's talking to The Jew, The Gentile or the Church. I did not write it I just read it and Literally Believe It.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Jesus message was to his own people the Jews because if they would have accepted him as their messiah there would have been No Christians. The disciples were not call Christians until Acts 11:26 at Antioch, Syria about 42 A.D. All of the Bible is divided in groups and who it's talking to The Jew, The Gentile or the Church. I did not write it I just read it and Literally Believe It.

When you say Jews, you do know that there are 12 tribes of Israel. Some refer to all of them as Jews. Some refer to only those of the tribe of Judah as Jews...some include Levi, in with those of Judah, and if so, what about the other ten tribes? And where did they settle? History points to the ten tribes crossing the Caucasus Mountains and settling in Europe, including the UK. Could many American's with British and European heritage be related to those of the 10 Tribes?

But I digress....but needed for my point.

When Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount (The Beatitudes, Matt 5-7), to great multitudes of people, some coming from BEYOND the Jordan, Were they all Jews.


Matt 4:25 thru Matt 5:2
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from [e]Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

[dannyd]

When you say Jews, you do know that there are 12 tribes of Israel. Some refer to all of them as Jews. Some refer to only those of the tribe of Judah as Jews...some include Levi, in with those of Judah, and if so, what about the other ten tribes? And where did they settle? History points to the ten tribes crossing the Caucasus Mountains and settling in Europe, including the UK. Could many American's with British and European heritage be related to those of the 10 Tribes?

But I digress....but needed for my point.

When Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount (The Beatitudes, Matt 5-7), to great multitudes of people, some coming from BEYOND the Jordan, Were they all Jews.


Matt 4:25 thru Matt 5:2
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from [e]Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:

Well to me (opinion) the Whole Book of Matthew is written to the Jews again Jesus was their Messiah.

I know about Abraham's grandson Jacob that's name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons which became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Got that. Never heard about the Jewish tribes going north.

I am Irish and we came from Noah's son Japheth a gentile that went north with his son's Genesis 10:2. Now those guys crossed all that territory.

Everyone was a Gentile till Abram name was changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5 and he became the first Jew. got that too.

[a danl]

Does the Bible begin and end the same way? God with man in a garden with the tree of life?

basically the fall of man came with adam, therefore all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (condemnation) BUT GOD, so loved his creation that he allowed his only son to become man and live a sinless life and die on the cross by shedding his blood as a final sacrifice for the sins of whoever believes that God raised him from the grave to prove to mankind that he alone is God and beside him there is no other. that's why we celebrate easter because of his resurrection. the first born among men. and to answer your question, yes, it is as if God is allowing us back into the garden because we now are declared righteous in God's sight

[Ickisrulz]

Jesus message was to his own people the Jews because if they would have accepted him as their messiah there would have been No Christians. The disciples were not call Christians until Acts 11:26 at Antioch, Syria about 42 A.D. All of the Bible is divided in groups and who it's talking to The Jew, The Gentile or the Church. I did not write it I just read it and Literally Believe It.

The selection of Abraham and his descendants as "God's Chosen People" was not to the exclusion of other groups of people or races. Israel was to carry the message of God's love and commands to everyone through her example of obedience and resulting blessings. Unfortunately, she ultimately failed. Also, consider that Judaism was not a closed religion. Any Gentile could become a Jew.

Had Israel as a whole accepted Jesus as the Messiah, the Gospel message would have been carried to the Gentiles by the Jewish believers (kind of like the way it happened) and there would have certainly been Christians.

I find Paul's description of Gentiles being grafted into Israel very interesting. Now, the Jews who would be saved must be grafted into the Church.

[Ickisrulz]

Well, He did inflict His wrath not just to Adam and Eve but to all mankind after one sin. Women would suffer in child birth, and yet be subjected to her husband and still desire him. Men would till the earth to eat.

Yet, in Ezekiel, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father? When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

A bit of a mixed message about God's fairness.

The original sin put man on a path different from the one God had intended. The original idea was for man to follow God's rules without having to experience the negative effects of sin. Once man sinned, he was on the road to learn how harmful sin is. Man was on his own (outside the Garden of Eden) in many ways and that would make life more difficult. The man, whose job it was to provide for his family, would have to work much harder. The woman, whose role was to have children and raise them, would find it much more difficult without the original blessings of God.

The "curse" came through one man, but we all suffer and are judged for our own sins and we are on the same path of learning/experience as our ancient parents. The default fate of all men is death because of sin. Part of this is punishment for sins and the other part is that God is unwilling for man to live forever in a fallen state (hence the expulsion from access to the Tree of Life). God is willing to fix this for us by the work he accomplished through Jesus and the on-going work he is accomplishing through the Holy Spirit.

God is more than fair. He is extremely forgiving.

[dverna]

The original sin put man on a path different from the one God had intended. The original idea was for man to follow God's rules without having to experience the negative effects of sin. Once man sinned, he was on the road to learn how harmful sin is. Man was on his own (outside the Garden of Eden) in many ways and that would make life more difficult. The man, whose job it was to provide for his family, would have to work much harder. The woman, whose role was to have children and raise them, would find it much more difficult without the original blessings of God.

The "curse" came through one man, but we all suffer and are judged for our own sins and we are on the same path of learning/experience as our ancient parents. The default fate of all men is death because of sin. Part of this is punishment for sins and the other part is that God is unwilling for man to live forever in a fallen state (hence the expulsion from access to the Tree of Life). God is willing to fix this for us by the work he accomplished through Jesus and the on-going work he is accomplishing through the Holy Spirit.

God is more than fair. He is extremely forgiving.

If God is omniscient, He knew the choice Adam and Eve would make before they made it. Are you saying God did not know what was going to happen? That has been my conclusion for a long time.

I believe God knows everything about the past and everything about the present but He does not know everything about the future. In order to know everything about the future He would need to know every choice that we will make. If that is the case, is our "free will" predestined?

I am thankful for God's mercy. He had no choice as He decided to create us as sinners and thus heaven would be a desolate place without His mercy. I do not buy into Adam and Eve being responsible for the sins of the world. God wanted us a sinners. If he wanted us to be without sin, He would have started over with Adam and Eve, just He tried a redo with Noah. I suspect God knew mankind with free will could never meet His expectations so starting over made no sense. If we were to have free will, we would eventually sin. He did not want puppets.

[Ickisrulz]

If God is omniscient, He knew the choice Adam and Eve would make before they made it. Are you saying God did not know what was going to happen? That has been my conclusion for a long time.

I believe God knows everything about the past and everything about the present but He does not know everything about the future. In order to know everything about the future He would need to know every choice that we will make. If that is the case, is our "free will" predestined?

I am thankful for God's mercy. He had no choice as He decided to create us as sinners and thus heaven would be a desolate place without His mercy. I do not buy into Adam and Eve being responsible for the sins of the world. God wanted us a sinners. If he wanted us to be without sin, He would have started over with Adam and Eve, just He tried a redo with Noah. I suspect God knew mankind with free will could never meet His expectations so starting over made no sense. If we were to have free will, we would eventually sin. He did not want puppets.

When we come across something that God is reported to have done that we question or disagree with, we have a few options. We can question the source material (i.e., Bible or human authority). Is the report accurate? We can question God. Is he imperfect, is he limited (e.g., not omniscient), is he uncaring? Our last option is that we can question our self. Are we just not able to understand, comprehend or process something?

I wonder why you routinely choose the second option. You tell us often you believe in an imperfect, limited God. I am not criticizing, just observing and I admire your honesty. However, in my opinion claiming God has limited omniscience fails the logic test.

I have been on this earth under 55 years and can predict with pretty good accuracy how my children will behave in most situations. I cannot fathom how God was ever taken by surprise by his creatures. The person who created the entire universe, all the atoms and life we see cannot have anything except perfect knowledge in my estimation.

About "Free Will", Angles had free will and most never sinned, Jesus of Nazareth had free will but never sinned, God has free will but does not sin. So, free will is not necessarily a road to a tragic fall.

[dverna]

When we come across something that God is reported to have done that we question or disagree with, we have a few options. We can question the source material (i.e., Bible or human authority). Is the report accurate? We can question God. Is he imperfect, is he limited (e.g., not omniscient), is he uncaring? Our last option is that we can question our self. Are we just not able to understand, comprehend or process something?

I wonder why you routinely choose the second option. You tell us often you believe in an imperfect, limited God. I am not criticizing, just observing and I admire your honesty. However, in my opinion claiming God has limited omniscience fails the logic test.

I have been on this earth under 55 years and can predict with pretty good accuracy how my children will behave in most situations. I cannot fathom how God was ever taken by surprise by his creatures. The person who created the entire universe, all the atoms and life we see cannot have anything except perfect knowledge in my estimation.

About "Free Will", Angles had free will and most never sinned, Jesus of Nazareth had free will but never sinned, God has free will but does not sin. So, free will is not necessarily a road to a tragic fall.

Well....one third of the angels sinned even before Adam and Eve. It did not take long for them to fall from heaven.

Your analysis is correct about things I do not understand. I am left with either questioning if some accounts in the Bible are correct and/or if God is not perfect and omniscient. Someone recommended the book The Evangelical and The Open Theist by Garret Ham. It has helped me address the inconsistencies I struggle with. Of course the teachings in that book have been denounced by Evangelicals...no surprise there.

My understanding of God may be flawed, but that is between He and me. I suspect He smiles at my flailing around as I did when my son tried to take his first steps and says “Keep trying and don’t give up!” I will meet Him soon enough and know for sure.

I regret that I cannot become a member of the church I attend. It requires the Bible be accepted as the perfect word of God and is divinely inspired. I cannot get to that point...yet.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well to me (opinion) the Whole Book of Matthew is written to the Jews again Jesus was their Messiah.

I know about Abraham's grandson Jacob that's name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons which became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Got that. Never heard about the Jewish tribes going north.

I am Irish and we came from Noah's son Japheth a gentile that went north with his son's Genesis 10:2. Now those guys crossed all that territory.

Everyone was a Gentile till Abram name was changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5 and he became the first Jew. got that too.

You never heard of the 10 lost Tribes of Israel?

this is a good read.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bibl...of-israel.html

Near the end of this article:

Where Are the Lost Tribes of Israel Today?
The descendants of the 10 tribes of the Kingdom of Israel are thought by researchers of Jewish anthropology to live today in the world’s wealthiest nations. They found their land of milk and honey abroad.

There is evidence that Jewish people from the tribe of Asher live today in the Republic of South Africa.
Descendants of Dan’s tribe of Israel are reported to live in present-day Ireland.
Gad’s tribal people are living in Germany.
Issachar's people are living in Finland.
Ephraim’s tribe, largest in the Kingdom of Israel, live throughout the United Kingdom.
Manasseh tribal people live throughout the United States.
Naphtali's tribe lives in Sweden.
Reuben’s tribe is thought to exist in France.
Simeon’s tribe is scattered in the world among descendants of Israel.
Zebulon’s people are in Holland.

In your lifetime, you have probably read or seen conflict reported in the Near East as nations struggle to take ownership of the Holy Land. Conflict between tribes and their beliefs has been a problem since the earliest Bible times. National groups in the Near East have a spiritual basis for their political conflicts: countries claim they have the exclusive blessing of God to occupy His Holy Land.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Well to me (opinion) the Whole Book of Matthew is written to the Jews again Jesus was their Messiah.

I know about Abraham's grandson Jacob that's name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons which became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Got that. Never heard about the Jewish tribes going north.

I am Irish and we came from Noah's son Japheth a gentile that went north with his son's Genesis 10:2. Now those guys crossed all that territory.

Everyone was a Gentile till Abram name was changed to Abraham in Genesis 17:5 and he became the first Jew. got that too.

What about the Gospel of Luke?

Luke 2:10-11
King James Version
10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

[augercreek]

I posted the original question, but it has morphed into something totally different. Please get back to the original topic.

[dverna]

I posted the original question, but it has morphed into something totally different. Please get back to the original topic.

It took me a minute to find this:

https://www.compellingtruth.org/doing-in-heaven.html

I am not a "good" Christian so I will be serving the Lord by cleaning toilets...or whatever the lowest from of 'serving the Lord' is needed. It will be interesting working shoulder to shoulder with many of the pastors, lawyers, and politicians I currently have no use for.