It came to be common doctrine in Europe in the late 1800s. A girl had a 'vision from God' and the masses sucked it up like a dry sponge. Despite scripture to the contrary. Mark 24:25
Scripture warns us in the last days, people will seek pleasantries that tickle the ears.
if it doesn't fit, don't force it. Get a BIGGER HAMMER!
Sorry, but I'm lost.Originally Posted by sledgehammer001
What "it" was common European doctrine in the late 1800s?
What girl living where had what vision that the masses sucked up?A girl had a 'vision from God' and the masses sucked it up like a dry sponge.
Contrary to what?Despite scripture to the contrary."
????Mark 24:25
Mark 13:25
Rapture doctrines where NOT common teaching in ANY Christian church until the late 1800s, starting in England and spreading to the USA, where it became very popular among some churches, but it's still not accepted doctrine among many others.
So I ask again! Why did it take 1700 years to come up with a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine?
Thunder, your premise is wrong.
Basically, for the first 1,500 years there was ONLY the Roman Church. In that time there was a LOT of scripture that was ignored, as well as a lot that was simply invented.
With that history behind them, theologians were busy dealing with a lot of more pressing subjects. It took about another 300 years for anyone that we know of to pay attention to what Paul had taught - and written - about the (pre-Tribulation) Rapture but it was in the Book all the time.
My friend, I believe it is rapture theory as a whole that's wrong and that scripture has been, and continues to be twisted to keep it alive.
You believe the rapture itself is wrong? Goodness! How then do you interpret 1 Thes 4:16, 17?
I'll note that "caught up" is the English translation of the Greek word "raptor" and it's from that that we get rapture; it was in the Bible for hundreds of years of Roman Catholic neglect and, as you observe, it still is by some folk.
Truth is, the Rapture doctrine (it's not a theory!) was and is written in plain language in scripture. Those who say otherwise have to twist the Written Word all out of shape to make their theory acceptable even to themselves.
Noah and family was sealed in, lifted up and protected from the horror and destruction of the flood. So too will the Church be lifted up, sealed in a heavenly place and protected from the horrors of the Tribulation.
Nothing in 1800 or since has any bearing on the Rapture doctrine as Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave it.
Last edited by 1hole; 05-07-2022 at 06:27 PM.
That's easy. Read the whole of chapter 4 for context, for both subject and object. Paul explains where those previously deceased are and their disposition with respect to Christ's return.
The previously deceased faithful He brings with Him.
Those yet living get changed.
Nothing complicated about that.
The idea of rapture was not taught in Christianity until after 1830s when a young lady had a “prophetic vision” as I recall the not that great doctors of the time did not believe she was of sound body and mind. As she had been chronically Ill for a long time.
She was also an irvinite cultist. But the priests believed her and so the fever dream became gospel.
Not trying to discredit anyones beliefs. I just looked this up a couple years ago and that’s the info I found…
I personally just try to keep to the basics that Jesus said way back when. Without all the ceremony and idolatry that’s commonly taught.
Happy shooting!
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Sounds good on the surface but I see two big problems with that.
1. If you take out everything but the red letters there wouldn't be much left. (But, that would make "Bible" study much less time consuming!)
2. Jesus didn't write scripture, men of God inspired by the Holy Spirit did, ALL of it, and there are no red letter scrolls. Thus, it is men who paint some letters black and some red, not God. Seems to me that the original inspiration of the Holy Spirit makes both the red letters and black letters equal and therefore equally demanding of study. (2 Tim 3:16-17) ??
I don’t understand what you mean by red and black letters.
I was referencing what the Bible physically has written down within itself vs the doctrine of mens churches, which changes from church to church. Yet they all claim to use the Bible with differing outcomes.
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Last edited by johnsonian09; 05-08-2022 at 09:55 AM.
Sorry, but the Greek word used there is "harpazo", not raptor! It probably has more to do with the name of the harpy eagle than all birds of prey. The same word is used in 13 verses in the KJV Bible and is translated by different phrases in most of them. To build a theory on one poorly translated verse is very suspect. For instance: Jhn 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.: they weren't going to "rapture" Jesus, but take him by force and make him king! The SAME Greek word. I'll contend the reference translated as rapture is "taken by force". Christ shall TAKE BY FORCE, from DEATH, the GRAVE, and Satan his people! To dwell with him in a new earth, after a resurrection of the dead and transformation of our mortal body, we will go out to meet him in the clouds as a city welcoming home the triumphant king to dwell with man forever! This is the end of the plan to reunite God and man! Not some taking the church away while everyone else is put through some contrived tribulation.
Matt. 5:5, RS: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”
Ps. 37:29, RS: “The righteous shall possess the land [“earth,” Ro, NW], and dwell upon it for ever.” (Also verses 10, 11, 34)
1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
The word rapture does not appear in the Bible. Gods worshippers have the opportunity to live forever on earth after Jesus comes again, to bring an end to this sorry state of affairs that we call a world governance. And the last enemy death, will be defeated because we will no longer sin. And death is sins wages.
When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?
1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (Evidently some members of the Christian congregation in Thessalonica had died. Paul encouraged the survivors to comfort one another with the resurrection hope. He reminded them that Jesus was resurrected after his death; so, too, at the coming of the Lord, those faithful Christians among them who had died would be raised to be with Christ.)
The bringing together of Christian’s into the air and clouds in this part of the book is figurative, to be poetic. To comfort the friends of those who died.
1st Corinth 15:51-Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,52in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.
Matt24:30 -Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
the clouds of heaven: Clouds tend to obstruct vision rather than facilitate it, but observers can “see” with eyes of understanding.—Ac 1:9.
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Seems I misunderstood what you meant, sorry 'bout that.
I thought you meant you read the basic "red" letters, the words specifically attributed to Jesus, as opposed to the black letter words some people call the "words of men."
I've had discussions with a few men who insist that the only parts of the Bible we should care about are the red words of Jesus, and that only in the KJV because, after all, it's the only "authorised" version! They said the black words were only what some old men had written so they couldn't be relied on for truth like the red words!!
Ahh yes I can see how you came to that conclusion. Yes I read the collection of books as a whole body. Not picking and choosing. I do believe the Bible’s authors are inspired. As Jesus himself didn’t pen a single letter of it. Lol that would leave me with nothing to read and I’d have no hope left then.
It’s only the non-biblical based doctrine and ideas of men I reject in a theological sense.
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The word "Bible" doesn't appear in the Bible; nor does the "Trinity". Those are doctrinarial words we use to identify the subjects for discussion sake because the realities are in there.The word rapture does not appear in the Bible.
Some Greek words are translated into English, some are not. "Baptism" is an untranslated word the means "washed clean". "Deacon" means "server at tables". "Rapture" isn't in the Bible because it's been translated as "caught up", we only use the word Rapture to identify the doctrine of being "caught up" to be with the Lord.
The subject was the Rapture. But it can't be understood without knowing the Rapture precedes the Tribulation and is NOT the second coming of the Lord to establish his kingdom on earth.When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?
Paul had obviously taught that church a lot but I suspect it was like drinking from a fire hose; they didn't get it all. They were alarmed that some of them had died and feared those dead had missed the (pre-Trib) rapture.
Paul wrote that brief chapter (1 Thess 4) to assure them that not only had those dead not missed the Rapture (the Rapture being the huge first wave of resurrection of deceased believers) but the dead would be raised a moment before those still living were translated. THAT is why Paul ended the topic by telling them to encourage, reassure and comfort each other with his words. There would be little in his message to comfort anyone if they had to endure the Trib before the Rapture of the Bride of Christ/Church could come!
1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
It's just figurative? That's puzzling. Do you really mean the whole Rapture account is just a well meaning lie?The bringing together of Christian’s into the air and clouds in this part of the book is figurative, to be poetic. To comfort the friends of those who died.
Last edited by 1hole; 05-08-2022 at 03:47 PM.
To be more clear I answered the rhetorical question that was:
“When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?”
And before answering I prefaced it with these to show evidence
Matt. 5:5, RS: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”
Ps. 37:29, RS: “The righteous shall possess the land [“earth,” Ro, NW], and dwell upon it for ever.” (Also verses 10, 11, 34)
1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”
With:
(Evidently some members of the Christian congregation in Thessalonica had died. Paul encouraged the survivors to comfort one another with the resurrection hope. He reminded them that Jesus was resurrected after his death; so, too, at the coming of the Lord, those faithful Christians among them who had died would be raised to be with Christ.)
After citing the section of chapter 4:13-18
The bringing together of Christian’s into the air and clouds in this part of the book is figurative, to be poetic. To comfort the friends of those who died.
1st Corinth 15:51-52 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed.
Matt24:30 -Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
the clouds of heaven: Clouds tend to obstruct vision rather than facilitate it, but observers can “see” with eyes of understanding.—Ac 1:9.
My argument against the rapture is multi faceted. In order of previously cited scriptures:
1&2) Gods will in the Bible is for all human Christian’s to live forever upon the earth
3) a fleshly body cannot enter heaven. You would have to physically die to enter heaven. So there is no point of resurrecting someone long dead just to kill them a second time.
4) the secret is: some humans will survive the tribulation. And be made sinless. And the dead raised will be sinless. Once you have died, you have paid for your sins. The wages sin pays is death. That doesn’t mean you’ll be dead forever.
5) another reference to clouds and air being a poetic statement. They won’t see god or Jesus. But they will know.
Further citations to show that resurrection will take place on earth after the tribulation. Let’s establish a timeline for how things will end in order:
Destruction of false religions: rev17:1-5, 15-18
And 18:9/10
Armageddon stages:
Judgement of those alive on earth: Matt 25:31-46
Destruction of ungodly people/ opposers rev16:14-16
Destruction of specifically world governments rev 19:19-21
Complete. Tribulation has ended.
Begin a new world by: imprisoning demons and satan rev20:1-3
Resurrection stage:
Millennium of teaching faithful people and those who died to a resurrection of judgement, a time to teach and be taught gods way of living rev20:4-6
Final test for humans, satans release rev 20:7
God resides with men. Sin and death no longer plague humans living on earth
Rev 21:1-4
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I believe that section is meant largely to be poetic. Like when it says in psalms 72 he will flourish until the moon is no more. It means forever. Not that on a new moon he will abandon him or that if he wanted to abandon him on a specific time he’d wipe out the moon first. Just means forever.
Nor do I believe you have been maliciously lied too or that your being malicious by defending it. And I sincerely hope don’t find me to be malicious by presenting evidence to refute the idea of a rapture. Just simply in my study I find more evidence against it then for it.
Prov.14:15
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Last edited by johnsonian09; 05-08-2022 at 05:10 PM.
A lot of well meaning people "believe" a lot of very wrong things for reasons that seem good to them. Sadly, I don't even put a lot of faith in what I "believe", therefore I read a lot of things but I only believe what I see in the Word.
I see no "poetic" farce in the Rapture; going down that road casts away the only anchor we have for believing anything in scripture!
Goodness, NO! In fact I highly respect anyone who is willing to argue anything they believe, respectfully and point by counterpoint. I've been married to the old woman sitting across the room from me right now for 62 years (the miles do show but she still looks like my 17 yr. old bride to me). If we couldn't strongly disagree without anger one of us would already be dead and the other in prison for life!I sincerely hope don’t find me to be malicious by presenting evidence to refute the idea of a rapture.
Come quickly Lord Jesus!
Addressing the easiest errors in your list:
When the Lord returns and stops the Tribulation, the saved mortals who died in the Tribulation will be resurrected with immortal bodies, ready to enter heaven and stand in the presence of God. Thus, there's no reason for God to repeat the dead/live process. (Actually, as I count them, there are at least four waves of resurrections of the dead, maybe five, but it's certainly not just one.)3)... a fleshly body cannot enter heaven. You would have to physically die to enter heaven. So there is no point of resurrecting someone long dead just to kill them a second time.
First, the resurrected of all ages will have the heart of God written on their hearts (Heb 10:16). They will then live sinless because their hearts will at last conform to what wants and that's best for all of us.4) the secret is: some humans will survive the tribulation. And be made sinless. And the dead raised will be sinless. Once you have died, you have paid for your sins. The wages sin pays is death. That doesn’t mean you’ll be dead forever.
Second, Jesus has already paid for my sins and I had nothing to do with it. (Eph 2:8-9)
Third, nothing says those who survive the Tribulation and are then allowed to repopulate the Lord's Millennial Kingdom (not the eternal Heaven on Earth) might be sinless and they certainly won't be immortal. (Isa 65:20)
Please explain further what you mean:
“ When the Lord returns and stops the Tribulation, the saved mortals who died in the Tribulation will be resurrected with immortal bodies, ready to enter heaven and stand in the presence of god.”
My understanding of the idea of a rapture occurring, is that Jesus is supposed to save people before the tribulation occurs. When in fact, the faithful are meant to survive through it on the earth.
Also that statement conflicts with the fact that blood and flesh (physical bodies) can not enter heaven. Unless by “Immortal bodies” you mean to say the person has died in order to assume a spirit-angel like form to serve in heaven.
Also I fail to see how this does not support my own argument. Here we are saying the same thing with different words.
“First, the resurrected of all ages will have the heart of God written on their hearts (Heb 10:16). They will then live sinless because their hearts will at last conform to what wants and that's best for all of us.”
And as for this:
“Second, Jesus has already paid for my sins and I had nothing to do with it. (Eph 2:8-9)”
Well, yes both are true. The we pay for our sins when we die as-well but because we are sinners we are unable to be redeemmed. Jesus is the basis of our being resurrected, because he died a innocent man without sin, so we can come back. Thus making death temporary. Also, in the Old Testament. Innocent animals paid for our sins to make gods worshippers clean. So we would be able to come to god in prayer. But this was a temporary provision only to last until Jesus came to earth. Which is also why we should pray through Jesus, as he died for us to become our bridge to God.
As for:
“Third, nothing says those who survive the Tribulation and are then allowed to repopulate the Lord's Millennial Kingdom (not the eternal Heaven on Earth) might be sinless and they certainly won't be immortal. (Isa 65:20)”
The whole point of the millennial kingdom is the timeline in the name. It’s a theocratic government designed to return humans to the perfection that Adam lost. By educating us about God and resurrecting all those righteous and unrighteous( probably those who in life never had the opportunity come to love god in their original life). To a resurrection of life and a resurrection of judgement.
So we can all attain perfect human life on earth. And prove individually our loyalty to God when Rev20:7 happens and satan is released from the abyss at the end of the thousand year period.
Those who survive tribulation, and those resurrected have to get past this to gain eternal life with God. And even then, they could lose it at some point after. As even Satan was once a perfect angel. Even an immortal spirit creature can lose their way from God and lose their life.
The only reason God didn’t wipe satan out originally was because satan knew better then to question gods power. He questioned his sovereignty. Like a rebellious teenager. Gods right to rule mankind was questioned. Gen3:5
Last edited by johnsonian09; 05-09-2022 at 11:20 PM.
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