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Thread: When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    By the way, around twenty years or so ago when I obtained a couple of MacPherson's books, I came to suspect that he missed the boat on why Darby seized upon the PTRT. It looked like marketing to me, like he needed a new shtick to sell. Whether that's really the case or not afterwards the PTRT was examined and realized to be useful politically and pushed by some concerns with deep pockets. But then we'd get into just who and what Cyrus Scofield was, who picked him up and gave him a new coat of paint, a whole 'nother can of worms. For those interested in such things as this thread was opened to discuss, it really is a tale of intrigue beyond international in scope and fraught with mysteries both enlightened and mundane.

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    ... if you approach scripture with a preconceived template in your mind (whether valid or not PTRT is such a preconceived template) then you will skew what you are given by scripture to fit your template. So be sure you are not choosing to believe a lie.
    First, I wonder who McPherson is and what he has written.

    Second, I've been more or less studying eschatology for more than four decades but I only know "Darby" by the contempt that has been poured on him for simply recognizing and explaining what Biblical "dispensations" (Eph 1:10) actually mean; that one historical concept has cleared up more supposed Bible "contradictions" than any other single thing I know of. (If anyone can point to and prove any error in Schofield's excellent Bible dispensation footnotes I'd like to know where it can be found!)

    Some 15 years ago I found a beautiful leather bound Schofield KJV lying undamaged on an Interstate Highway in Ohio; I didn't leave it there!

    Since then I have heard/read many accusations about what Mr. Schofield supposedly "says". I have his study Bible and none of the known accusations have yet proven even close to true.

    I have never read Schofield's position on PRTR "theory" if he has one but I know the Rapture precedes the Tribulation. It has clearly become a cottage industry for some folk to read what others have said about Schofield and Darby and then jump in to help degrade them both! That doesn't seem right to me.

    I love the KJV, mostly because it's what I've known from infancy. I know it is filled with trivial translation errors (Like God the Holy Spirit is not a ghost!) but I know it fairly well and most in depth study books are keyed to it.

    I have prayfully tested every professing Christian theological school I have access to but I have followed no man's "template" in my studies, not even my own! Fact is, I study to find Biblical truth. Therefore, I must honestly listen to other searching students because I know I can learn something from everyone and I will do so if I don't sneer at them first.

    I know much more today than I used to but I'm still not a Bible expert. Since I don't "know it all" I can afford to learn from others, and I will learn if I actually listen to them.

    I prayerfully examine and acid test my old ideas against new ideas rather than blindly holding onto what seems to support my preconceptions; that single practice has forced me to change many of my old beliefs, including a pre-Trib Rapture.

    Thus, having found myself wrong in many details, I do not automatically sneer at presumably "lesser lights" like Darby, Larkin, Schaffer, Ryrie, Capps, Schofield, et al, (McPherson?) that didn't or at least don't immediately align with my thoughts. Meaning that while I immediately reject demonstrably erroneous Biblical ideas I don't slime the people I disagree with as profit motivated snakes.

    By anyone's standards, I'm old but my mind still works fairly well and I'm still flexible enough to be able to learn. I've had to shift and revise "what I believe" many times in order to pick up and accommodate new and better perspectives. No one frozen in the concrete of his own mind will ever advance again.

    May God help us all.
    Last edited by 1hole; 04-20-2022 at 04:09 PM.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    +1 May God help us all!
    Good prayer, that.
    Beware putting stuff into the Bible because you want it to be there.
    I'm not saying you are or aren't.
    I'm saying stick to Scripture, not man's opinion of Scripture.
    Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 4:
    (Thank you BibleHub)

    Servants of Christ

    1Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    Amen

    Nowhere does the Book say to twiddle your thumbs on a flickering screen.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmbif View Post
    there is more written that has been found and rejected or edited out by rulers such as Constantine, one example is the book of Thomas. just what was written from those who actually knew Jesus and traveled and learned from him?
    Farmer, a lot of plausible sounding crap about what might have been taken out of the Bible by Constantine and others has been written.

    Fact is, no one in the early days of Christianity had any idea that something like the Bible as we know it would ever exist. There were no copyright rules then so no writings were standardised in their day. Even the KJV is not - and cannot be - copyrighted so anyone can manipulate it as they wish. (See the Jehovah Witness' "New World Translation Bible" and know it's neither a translation or a Bible, it's a sad corruption of the KJV.)

    A LOT of spurious "bible" books were written in the early years but some of the old church leaders of that time pretty well knew which writings were valid and which were not. Thus, forgeries such as "Thomas" were left out but some are still floating around ... but they're still not accepted in the canon of God's inspired scriptures.

    Much like King James in 1611, Constantine put his seal of approval on books a majority of the church leaders at the council in Nicea agreed on, circa 320 AD, and they made canon. But even then that list wasn't fully fixed until about 700 AD; those good men didn't rush to approve anything or ignore anything!

    After the canon was established, the Roman church slowly started putting in some other books so they could have some sort of "scriptural" basis for their many new man-made teachings. Those extra Biblical writings were removed from "Protestant" Bibles in the 1500s but the frauds are still floating around.

    Bottomline, I trust that mainline Bibles do contain all of the books Christians need to know.
    Last edited by 1hole; 04-21-2022 at 09:53 PM.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    points well made. I'm no theologian. I saw something about the Dead Sea scrolls or something over easter.. anyway, some of the interpretations of the Bible ive heard from some preachers. I just dont know how they can make up the stuff they say from reading the same verses they say they are referring to.
    I guess I'm pretty simple that way I take at face value what is written and dont try to make up my own version of it like ive heard some preachers do.
    there are some local preachers that ive heard preach and they just seem to make their own stuff up. and I feel pretty strongly about it, that is what's not for me

  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    I gotta say this. I was at a very dear friends funeral. he was a very close friend and I miss him every day. there were three preachers at the funeral. and this one young guy kept going on and on that Jesus is make all the skeletons in the graveyard come up out of their graves and they be back alive living among us. he went on and on about how the skeletons are gonna rise up and come back to life. it just hit me wrong some of the stuff he was preaching.
    and it wasn't just me, I asked a couple friends if they had ever heard such before and they were put off by what this guy was saying too.
    maybe I'm just venting, excuse me if I'm out of line here. I really miss my buddy he was kind of like a dad to me in a lot of ways
    Last edited by farmbif; 04-21-2022 at 10:23 PM.

  7. #47
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmbif View Post
    ... this one young guy kept going on and on that Jesus is make all the skeletons in the graveyard come up out of their graves and they be back alive living among us. he went on and on about how the skeletons are gonna rise up and come back to life.
    Nonsense. That's messed up doctrine coming from people who read something without understanding and walked away being positive about something real but that story doesn't mean what they think it means.

    The valley of dry bones in Ezk 37:1-14 is the only possible basis of that story. It's "real" but it's not literal; no sacks of bones are walking around with us!

    The dry bones account is a prophetic metaphor for the eventual restoration of the destroyed House of Israel, i.e. the nation of Jews. And that's no confused guess, that's what the Biblical account says it is!

    Israel was crushed by the Romans and escaping remnants were scattered across much of the world in the AD 70 - 300 period. As a people, they were alive but they were effectively as dead and dry as a field of disconnected bones for hundreds of years but God wanted them to have faith that they were not forgotten by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; He would bring them back together in their own land and they would stand strong again!

    As God promised, those widely scattered dry bones began to come back together about 1900 AD. After the holocaust of WW2, many Jews went "home" and Israel was reestablished as a sovereign country in May of 1948.

    Today the blood line of Abraham once again stands in their promised land and on their feet; the "dry bones" live!


    Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

  8. #48
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    Actually, to understand what the “rapture” is, you first need to understand what a traditional Galilee wedding looks like. When the father of the groom finally tells the groom to go get his bride, a procession goes to the brides house where she is “caught up” into a modified chair that is carried in the air to deliver the bride to the grooms house.

    Everything that was spoken concerning the rapture and second coming was spoken to the disciples and they understood a Galilee wedding. Jesus spoke to them in terms that they completely understood. That is also why Jesus said “only the Father knows the day and time.” If you understand a Galilee wedding, you know that only the father of the groom knows when everything is in order, the feast is prepared, and can give the command to the groom to go claim his bride.

    Nowhere else in the Middle East is a wedding done quite like it is traditionally in Galilee.

    Marko
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

    I will love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Good information Marko. And understanding that traditional Jewish wedding process goes a long way to support a pre-Trib, pre-wrath of God Rapture and subsequent wedding of the Bride to Christ.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    Sorry about the sermon at the funeral, I have squirmed through a few of those.
    We don't do that. We love our altar call at the end because it is necessary for some.
    We have a celebration of life, because there is no death.
    Good reverent fun.
    We had our Pastor's celebration of life this year, with fried chicken and slaw.
    Good man, I hope to see him soon.

    Isn't that what the Rapture debate really is, all about a fear of dying?
    And there is nothing you can do about it, except pray.
    Even the scientism cult agrees the world will end, poor them.
    You need only to have faith in the Owner's Manual.

    That Faith is the only saving Grace for America.
    Holy Spirit, I pray for Revival! Bring it on!

    Or else. We are a generation away from being Moslem.
    Don't think so? Check out Dearborn MI or DC.
    I don't know what religion LA is, maybe none of the above?
    The missionary we sent to Ukraine is fine, was in Kharkiv, got moved west.
    The missionary we sent to San Francisco disappeared.
    I hope they didn't eat him.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by .429&H110 View Post
    Isn't that what the Rapture debate really is, all about a fear of dying?
    I don't think so. In fact, I don't believe fear of death has any part of it. Surely no Christian who can read denies there will be a rapture; the question is at what point in time it will happen.

    Our choices are (1) before the Tribulation starts; (2) halfway through the Tribulation; (3) after the Tribulation. To be sorta brief, the only answer that actually fits scripture is pre-Trib and that's for at least three reasons.

    (1) The Tribulation will come when the wrath of God is poured over the earth. Several scattered scripture verses tell us that Christians will not experience the wrath of God; that's important to remember.

    (2) After Paul tells us the Rapture is coming, he then tells us to encourage one another (1 Thess 5-11). It would be hard to encourage anyone if we had to first tell them about the coming Tribulation and then end up telling them, "But cheer up guys, everything will be wonderful after the Tribulation's hell-on-earth/wrath of God is over!" Naw, that doesn't work either, it's not at all encouraging. ??

    (3) Remember that the "Church", the Bride of Christ, is not a building, it's the chosen people of God; WE are the Church. Revelation uses the word "church" many times in the first three chapters but then it isn't used again until about chapter twenty.

    The only thing that makes sense to explain that sudden absence is that the Church will be gone during that time, we'll be raptured into heaven for the full seven years of tribulation. Then - finally - the raptured Church will return to earth with Lord Jesus who will finally stop all the fighting and misery we were shielded from.

    So, the only time for the Rapture to occur that fits what we know without jamming it into some convoluted man-made theory is pre-Trib.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    1 hole that was very well put!
    Apologies for thread hijack but
    I have done my formal and informal Bible studies
    and concluded that Jesus said He would be right back.
    He didn't say when, He did say soon.

    I am more concerned with the new evangelism, right now right here,
    than with the New Jerusalem someday.

    The Scientismists are scared to death of death.
    They believe that when they are dead, they're dead.
    To be a Christian (to me) means a rebirth, a change,
    I am not the same person I was, thank you God.
    When a nominal Christian dwells on Rapture etc.
    I worry that they are missing the point.

    If a hard-hearted God-hating evolutionist read the above 51 posts, would he or she or it say:
    "Golly I wanna be a Christian too!".
    Not likely.

    The old evangelism has been canceled.
    Door knocking
    Tracts
    Billboards
    Inviting your friends to church
    TV ads and "tele-evangelism"
    Jesus on the history channel, brought to you by Disney.
    Nobody can answer a phone anymore anyway
    Spam filters
    Religion blogs (oh my)
    Good old fashioned face to face with masks six feet apart
    Handing out Bibles, but Gideon has left the house, nobody reads.

    What does the new evangelism look like?
    It looks like me, looks like you; we are all we got.
    We have to actually look like Christians.

    Has been my limited experience that new believers and non-believers are very curious about Jesus, what He taught and what He did. This is as it should be- Gospel. I am a Christian, not a Paulian. If you try to expound on Noah in the boat, Adam and Eve had no bellybuttons, Daniel in the lions den, Second coming, virgin birth, they are going to say "Jewish folk tales".

    You have heard this one...
    A pastor walks into a bar and yells, "If you want to go to Heaven, wait for me outside!" A guy at the end of the bar calmly drinks his beer. Pastor gets in his face, "Don't you want to go to Heaven when you die?". "Oh, when I die? I thought you were going right now."

    Told this one to our new pastor today:
    Cowboy visited church, sat in the back row. He looked like a cowboy, walked like a cowboy, smelled like a cowboy. After service the preacher said to the cowboy, "This week I want you to pray about what to wear next Sunday". Cowboy showed up the next Sunday, preacher asked him "Didn't I tell you to pray about what to wear to church?"
    "Yessir, I did. I asked God what to wear and God said He had never been to this church, so He didn't know either".

    Last century we discovered we could sell Jesus, and people would buy Him. Then they were left alone with buyer's remorse. People nowadays are salesman-proof with very hard hearts. Only the Holy Spirit can convict and convert, change a man. We have to let Him.

    Ghandi said: "I admire your Jesus, but I don't like His Christians".

    America was once admirable. It can be again, if we can get back to majority Christian.
    Doesn't matter which of the eleven sexes one identifies as, the Holy Spirit will bring peace to any tortured soul. Doesn't matter who or what you were, when you are re-born into a relationship with our Father.
    We are here to serve God. That is our calling.

    For $10,000,000,000 we bought a telescope "To explore the origins of the universe".
    By my Book: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
    A problem with their creation is they have to divide infinite energy by zero length.
    My God can divide by zero.

    TL;DR thank you for your patience.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    The old ways of personal evangelism have largely disappeared. But I believe it's probably more due to the warped world we now live in than changed Christians.

    I've read that many city people now live in little electronic bubbles and don't engage in polite conversation with anyone as much as they used to do so I'd guess it's harder to cold approach non-believers than it used to be. And today's smug, intolerant, "respectful of others" - and very "liberal" - non-believers feel free to verbally attack and try to embarass any Christian they can trap in public places.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master
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    What to do except the Book?

    We support a missionary in India who was preaching on a corner when the crowd started throwing rocks. Police showed up, started throwing rocks, too. Tough crowd. When your audience ups with rocks, you know you have their attention. First you need an audience, then they need rocks.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master
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    This is thread hijack, and perilously close to trolling.
    Apologys.
    I should start a thread.

  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    "First, I wonder who McPherson is and what he has written."

    I did too.

    My way of examining an issue is to examine the ins and outs of both sides. There are some really interesting pro-PTRT commentaries both in print and in audio/video format. Chuck Missler's are some of the most enjoyable I've come across.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master


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    I always thought that Matthew 24:40 was the basis for the idea of the rapture!
    I am Lutheran and the rapture is not a part of our teaching.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master
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    If you read this verse in context (as in the days of Noah), the ones lost, destroyed, taken, seized upon, WHERE NOT THE SAVED! The left behind where the saved, Noah and his family. In the following chapter 25 the wise virgins "went out to meet him". We will rise up to meet the coming king in the clouds in an eternal body, not be taken away, but to meet the king who will dwell with man in a new (renewed) earth, as it was in the beginning! It's also consists with Matthew 13: 37-43 when Jesus explains the parable of the weeds! The wicked are the ones plucked up and thrown into the furnace, not the good crop!

  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Thundarstick, thank you for including that. I'd made myself a mental note to go look up the verses concerning one taken and one left, and here you did it for me.

    The homestead provided to us going on ten years ago, we call "the Ark" in appreciation from understanding.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltaenterprizes View Post
    I always thought that Matthew 24:40 was the basis for the idea of the rapture!
    I am Lutheran and the rapture is not a part of our teaching.
    My longest and strongest family buddy & wife are committed Lutherans so we've learned a lot about it from them; there's a lot they don't teach and a lot of what they do teach is wrong. You know, Lutherans are about as wrong on some issues as other denominations!

    In the early 1500s Luther was a dedicated Roman Catholic priest who saw how badly they had moved from their original teachings.
    He sought to restore - i.e., reform - his church but the entrenched powers threw him out instead.

    Luther tried to save as much of Roman teachings as he could while cleaning out the corruptions. The RCC had never been interested in teaching the whole of scripture and they didn't even try to teach about end-times. Thus, neither did Luther, and his followers still don't. Neither do Roman Catholics. But, at least IMHO, everything in the Bible should be studied (2 Tim 3:16, 17).

    Happily, my old friends are devout followers of Jesus. There's no Biblical requirement that anyone has to be a precisely correct theologian for salvation so our mistaken - on a few side issues - friends will get to the same Heaven as us; I like that!

    I tell all that to say I believe there are phonies in every denomination, people are like that, but I also believe there are true followers of Christ in every denomination no matter how abdominal the denominations teaching are. God deals with people, one at a time, and NO orthodox denomination has a lock on the heart of God. But, being taught really bad doctrine certainly cuts down on the probability of anyone's salvation.

    I fear for my family and friends who claim Christianity but follow Mormonism, Jehovah Witness and Adventist; they hold to a different gospel and a different Jesus than Paul's and I don't know how much individual slack God cuts for that! (Gal 1:8-9)

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