When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

[Good Cheer]

1hole,
The world will have embraced a god. My expectation is that when Christ comes back that people all around the world will indeed be surprised. As previously stated, I've come to think that Christ's return happens after the two murdered witnesses stand up in the city, that it's going to be a big surprise as will be what 1st Thessalonians speaks to, that the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.

PS,
Hope you had a fine Resurrection Day.

[MT Gianni]

My personal take is that we will be caught up and meet the Savior as he triumphantly returns to an Earth made new. When, where and what exactly will happen is less important than doing what he commanded.

[Good Cheer]

Yep, of course it is more important. Like learning the parable of the fig tree. He said to learn it.

[Thundarstick]

The issue here is the Rapture, not if it will occur pre, mid or post Trib. All we need to know about the timing is to read the scriptures as if they are true as stated. It not a contest of logic or other books or "I believe this and you (wrongly) believe that". Only what God says matters and his Book is where we find that.

Scripture says the Rapture will happen suddenly and without warning; that would not be the case if it were to occur at mid or post Trib. The Trib itself it would be an obvious warning of what's coming next if the Rapture should happen mid or post Trib. Therefore, pre Trib is the only possible "Surprise!" answer and it matters not what I may think it should be.

Bottom line; the Rapture is not a recent concept, it comes directly from New Testament scripture, the same as salvation by faith and not works, and it did NOT start in 1820.

It's a fact that the Rapture will occur suddenly and without warning, therefore it has to occur pre Trib. (Mat 24:44) ???

I'm saying, that for 1700 years of christiandom a pre-tribulation rapture wasn't preached, taught, or understood in scripture!

Then all the sudden John Nelson Darby developed this pre-tribulation theory and starts pre-tribulation doctrines, where it's included in the Schofield reference Bible. There is where it enters some main stream English speaking sects as scriptural teaching. Then with the Left Behind books and movies have become entrenched in the American Christian psychie. This doesn't make it true and, or scriptural at all.

The Church has been in a tribulation since its establishing, and in no way are believers taken out of these trials. That's just not scriptural at all. The Church in America is being attacked just as the church in Laodiecea, by wealth and ease.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

From what I have seen of the tinfoil hats I am related to, they are waiting for the second coming of Trump or Jesus, I'm not sure which and they are confused by the interbabble of wonderful stuff.
Beware of manmade "stumblingblocks".

I ask them. "What are you doing?" No really. The flickering screen is no help.
"What are you doing to prepare for His Coming?"

My Savior said He would be right back. And soon.

We certainly need a second coming of Trump unless you are happy with the great job confused Joe is doing.

[1hole]

We certainly need a second coming of Trump unless you are happy with the great job confused Joe is doing.

Off topic but true.

America and the world be much better off with Alfred E. Newman in the White House than brother Booboo Biden OR sister Kackling Harris. Or Peelousy. Or ..... etc. of the Democrat's brain dead craphouse crew.

[1hole]

I'm saying, that for 1700 years of christiandom a pre-tribulation rapture wasn't preached, taught, or understood in scripture!

Historically, I'm saying that no one knows much about what was taught in the early churches, one way or the other because there are simply no records. We seem to know that not much of anything was standardized before the church in Rome declared itself boss of the world somewhere about 600-800 and, eventually, started calling itself "the universal true church", i.e., Roman Catholic.

By that time the ruling church leaders had no interest in teaching doctrines that couldn't be used to extract money from the people. And, to varying degrees, nothing they teach seems to have changed very much.

It's important to remember that the church reformers - Martin Luther and John Calvin - in the early 1500s were deeply immersed in RCC teachings and NONE of it included soteriology OR eschatology. They had a lot of other stuff heaped on their plates at that time (like staying alive) so it's not meaningful that neither of them addressed either topic directly.

Then all the sudden John Nelson Darby developed this pre-tribulation theory and starts pre-tribulation doctrines, where it's included in the Schofield reference Bible.

Rabid opponents of po' ol' Darby and Schofield have successfully accused both them of things they did not do. To the degree they started anything it was only to retrieve doctrines the RCC had dropped. But Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians and it's plainly written in the Book for all to see so it obviously isn't a diabolical invention crawling in from 1820.

Then with the Left Behind books and movies have become entrenched in the American Christian psychie. This doesn't make it true and, or scriptural at all.

You're faulting Darby and Schofield because of fictional secular books and movies they never saw and not one of whom even suggests they might be scripture? This is the USA so you are free to say that but it's a very long stretch with no end.

The Church has been in a tribulation since its establishing, and in no way are believers taken out of these trials. That's just not scriptural at all. The Church in America is being attacked just as the church in Laodiecea, by wealth and ease.

That's true so far as it goes but it's NOT true that the Church/Bride of Christ/true believers will go through seven years of Tribulation before the relief of the Rapture occurs. Otherwise there would be no purpose at all for the Rapture and God doesn't do anything without a good reason!

Bottom line, the Rapture is actually God's promised way of keeping his church out of the misery and devastation of the Tribulation! Sorta like what he once did for Noah and his family when they were caught up for safety during the early days of an unusually heavy rain storm.

[Good Cheer]

The ark of the last days is a study I'd encourage any to make.

[Good Cheer]

"Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians".
No.

[farmbif]

there is more written that has been found and rejected or edited out by rulers such as Constantine, one example is the book of Thomas.
just what was written from those who actually knew Jesus and traveled and learned from him?

[1hole]

"Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians".
No.

No? Goodness!

How then do you account for Paul's inclusion of it in his letters?

[Good Cheer]

It isn't.

[1hole]

"Paul had taught the pretrib Rapture to the Thessolonians".
No.

"No" what?

I haven't yet figgered out if you think you've figgered out there will be no real Rapture at all or that the Rapture won't be a "Surprise!" or that the Rapture will be mid-Trib or the Rapture will be post the horrors of the great Trib or if you hold some otherwise unknown view; will you help me on that? ???

[Good Cheer]

As previously stated, I think that Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.

[Good Cheer]

Something that I suspect is that His return may be concurrent with winter solstice the same as the last time He physically came to Earth. And that you should pray that your flight be not in winter because that is what could happen if you had accepted the fake Christ, the one who comes first.

[1hole]

As previously stated, I think that Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.

The two witnesses will be killed in the streets of Jerusalem and the Antichrist will desecrate the new temple's altar at mid-Trib. You think Jesus and the angelic clouds of heaven will physically return to earth at that time to be with us for the second half of the Tribulation?

[Good Cheer]

Like I said, Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.
If you think you can tie it down closer than that, speak up and say how.

[1hole]

Like I said, Christ will return after the two witnesses are killed.

And as I have effectively said, so do I.

If you think you can tie it down closer than that, speak up ...

Tie "it" down and speakup? Well, okay, if your "it" is when does the second coming occur, I can easily pin the Lord's return to earth at the end of the Tribulation, i.e., 7 years after Antichrist signs a peace treaty with Israel and 3 1/2 years after the two witnesses are killed.

... and say how.

No.

Trying once gain to reason with a closed mind that not only refuses to listen and won't answer questions or make any attempt to reason back would be foolish. I sometimes do foolish things but I'm no fool.

I will tell you that the easiest way to understand scripture is to look at everything that touches a matter and accept all that is written, just the way it's written, and arrange the parts to fit with no loose ends hanging out. And do it without "spiritualizing" what's written to make it fit your preconceived theories.

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Interlude to anyone that cares:

The Rapture will suddenly take up the Church pre-Trib because the Trib will be the wrath of God. Believers, i.e., the Bride of Christ/Jesus' blood-bought Church, will never face the wrath of God. (It's in the Book!)

Instead, we'll all be celebrating with our Lord in heaven as the hells of Tribulation unroll on earth.
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Cheer, study and learn the truth for yourself or not, as you wish, but ... believe me, you do need the study!

[Good Cheer]

And what you need to do is to try harmonizing scripture concerning Christ's return as you would when observing differences in the gospels recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke.
So there, now that we agree to disagree and have told each other what we need to do from the heights of our self-acknowledge superior biblical scholarship perhaps someone will touch upon where the pre-trip rapture theory (PTRT) came from without the usual ad hominem attacks and trying to look down our noses with a key board.

[Good Cheer]

People who study scripture often choose to concentrate on the English KJV because for those of us who speak American it is the one that has huge numbers of study resources is keyed to it. In somewhat a like manner the writings of David MacPherson concerning the PTRT have drawn so much flak, such a vociferous response from the proponents of the PTRT, that much has been written to attack him and what he wrote. That makes MacPherson an excellent place to start; if you want to be shocked then grab a lightening rod. My suggestion would be to get completely stoked on all things anti-PTRT and then immerse yourself in all the scholarship mankind has amassed that is pro-PTRT. Soak it all up. Digest it. Decide.

Some would ask, why is deciding important? My answer would be that if you approach scripture with a preconceived template in your mind (whether valid or not PTRT is such a preconceived template) then you will skew what you are given by scripture to fit your template. So be sure you are not choosing to believe a lie.