When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

[Good Cheer]

Yo pmer.
Far as I know the 144,000 come from each of twelve tribes, noting that Dan didn't make the list.
There are plenty of theories as to why that is, revolving around the tribes past and future behavior, including "gross idolatry" and some saying that scripture indicates that the "anti-Christ" will come from the tribe of Dan. I tend to think that the devil is going to keep that role for himself but whatever, the tribe of Dan is a fascinating study. It's recorded in correspondence from the time that the some of the Greeks knew they were kin. The Danites became merchant sea traders leaving their mark, their name, on rivers and lands and peoples far and wide. That probably has nothing to do with what you were thinking about but as far as I know Dan is the excluded group.

Anybody else, anybody remember the make up of the 144,000?

[Thundarstick]

Since y'all have kicked that 144,000 hornets nest! I had a Jehovah's Witness fella stop by last week. We spent about an hour discussing the scriptures and I brought up the 144,000. I was informed that ONLY 144,000 would be going to heaven to live with God, but the rest of the saved would be living forever on a new perfect earth. We moved on to other topics before I thought to ask him where they get that idea from? If I understand scripture, God will once again dwell with man. What about it?

[Alabama358]

Yo pmer.
Far as I know the 144,000 come from each of twelve tribes, noting that Dan didn't make the list.
There are plenty of theories as to why that is, revolving around the tribes past and future behavior, including "gross idolatry" and some saying that scripture indicates that the "anti-Christ" will come from the tribe of Dan. I tend to think that the devil is going to keep that role for himself but whatever, the tribe of Dan is a fascinating study. It's recorded in correspondence from the time that the some of the Greeks knew they were kin. The Danites became merchant sea traders leaving their mark, their name, on rivers and lands and peoples far and wide. That probably has nothing to do with what you were thinking about but as far as I know Dan is the excluded group.

Anybody else, anybody remember the make up of the 144,000?

Revelation 14: 4-5
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

1- Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
2- Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
3- Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
4- Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
5- Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
6- Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7- Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
8- Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
9- Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
10- Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
11- Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. (interesting the Dan didn't make the cut and is replaced with Joseph)
12- Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand

firstly these are not 144,000 Jews as is so wrongly stated in this day and age... It is 12,000 from each tribe

It appears that these 12k men groups have already been selected from back in the day and currently reside in heaven with the Lord... as many of these tribes have been out of existence for millennia... at any rate we will get to see them at their sealing ceremony according to Revelation 7:9 & Revelation 7:14

Dan must have really blew it... taking into consideration that current day Jews reject Jesus as a fake and fraud according to the Talmud, Their holy book... but still have a 12,000 man representation (Juda) where Dan does not.

[Good Cheer]

So much for the "lost tribes" being lost.

[Alabama358]

I think you can call any or all of the 12 Tribes Israelites or Hebrews.

But, lumping all of the twelve tribes together as Jews just seems nonsensical to me.

For Example,
Philippians 3: 4-6
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul said he was a Hebrew of Hebrews from the tribe of Benjamin from the stock of Israel...
Not a Jew of Jews from the tribe of Benjamin from the stock of Israel... and for the record was even a Pharisee

To me it is not such a stretch to think that GOD has a remnant of 12,000 saints from each of the 12 Tribes already picked for End Times work

[pmer]

1st Kings 12: 25 and Judges 18: 30 has reference to what was going on with the tribe of Dan. It was golden calves part II and a cultic shrine and Micah's idols were taken and used. King Jeroboam seemed to be worshipping God on his own terms. I thought it was leading to child sacrifice as well but I'm not sure about that.

[Good Cheer]

Thinking back thirty plus years ago, J. R. Church once put forth the thought that the Danites were perhaps the beginnings of the international merchant bankers.

[Alabama358]

Revelation 14: 4-5
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.
These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.
These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

1- Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
2- Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
3- Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
4- Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
5- Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
6- Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7- Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
8- Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
9- Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
10- Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
11- Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. (interesting the Dan didn't make the cut and is replaced with Joseph)
12- Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand

firstly these are not 144,000 Jews as is so wrongly stated in this day and age... It is 12,000 from each tribe

Matthew18:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Read Matthew 18 the other night and got me to thinking ...

- Christ recognizes the 12 Tribes of Israel and doesn't lump them together as "The Jews"
- If there is a completely different program for "the Jews" and "the Church"... and the Disciples are "The Church" How is it that "the Church" will be riding herd over the 12 Tribes... or as some may call them "the Jews"

Is it possible that all of those scriptures that say there is no difference between the "Circumcised and the Uncircumcised" no difference between the "Jew and the Greek" or the "Jew and the Gentile"... mean exactly what the say?... no different program, no different salvation path, no different punishments or rewards and no different regeneration.

[ioon44]

Ephesians 2:14-16
New King James Version
Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

[Good Cheer]

Matthew18:27-28
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Read Matthew 18 the other night and got me to thinking ...

- Christ recognizes the 12 Tribes of Israel and doesn't lump them together as "The Jews"
- If there is a completely different program for "the Jews" and "the Church"... and the Disciples are "The Church" How is it that "the Church" will be riding herd over the 12 Tribes... or as some may call them "the Jews"

Is it possible that all of those scriptures that say there is no difference between the "Circumcised and the Uncircumcised" no difference between the "Jew and the Greek" or the "Jew and the Gentile"... mean exactly what the say?... no different program, no different salvation path, no different punishments or rewards and no different regeneration.

Right, there is no different program. Some get their stuff together more than others while here (in the here and now) but we're all meat suit idiots needing to be taught. We'll be taught and yet some will still want to be rebellious. Oh well.

[Alabama358]

Ephesians 2:14-16
New King James Version
Christ Our Peace
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Nice reference scripture.

[Good Cheer]

There certainly has been interesting commentary on the internet of late concerning the signs and whether it's an indication of the closeness of the pretribulation rapture, of the timing of the rapture.

[Good Cheer]

As far as I'm concerned these guys are forging their own hoops and then trying to drag others through them...
But hey, the mental gymnastics really can be intriguing if you're someone interested in studying scripture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ45o8sy_0Q

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

12 Tribes of Israel:
Geographically, where are they now?

[ioon44]

12 Tribes of Israel:
Geographically, where are they now?

Everywhere.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Everywhere.

Exactly.
how do you, or I, know if we are, or are not, part of one of them?

[Good Cheer]

This came up one time when my father and I were sitting in the kitchen with coffee and solving the problems of the world.
My conclusion was that if your family is of European heritage there's probably little chance of not being a descendant of the twelve tribes. Or thirteen. Go back to Abraham and wow.

[Alabama358]

12 Tribes of Israel:
Geographically, where are they now?

After the big split... Northern 10 tribes vs Southern 2 tribes (basically Juda, Benjamin and a sprinkling of Levites)

"As prophesied by Ahijah (1 Kings 11:31-35), the house of Israel was divided into two kingdoms. This division, which took place approximately 975 B.C., after the death of Solomon and during the reign of his son, Rehoboam, came about as the people revolted against heavy taxes levied by Solomon and Rehoboam."

Most of the 10 tribes moved north and went into apostasy and eventually (somewhere around 721 B.C.) conquered by the Assyrians and then scattered amongst other peoples and were eventually assimilated, mixed and bred out of existence as a unique people.

So....one could say "everywhere" and be correct in that their DNA is probably just about everywhere.

But... I think the 12 Tribes that Christ references in Matthew 18:28 as well as the 12,000 from each tribe mentioned in Revelation 14: 3-4 are saints that are a remnant (meeting the declared criteria) that GOD has set aside and currently reside geographically wherever the LORD keeps the B.C. saved folks of the circumcised.

Heaven

[Good Cheer]

Leading one naturally to Matthew 15:24.

[ioon44]

As far as I'm concerned these guys are forging their own hoops and then trying to drag others through them...
But hey, the mental gymnastics really can be intriguing if you're someone interested in studying scripture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ45o8sy_0Q

We see a lot of this here on the forum also.