When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

[Good Cheer]

And from Ez.38:8
"After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them."

So...
It's the latter years.
It's a land brought back from the sword.
It's gathered out of many people, brought forth out of the nations.
It happens against the mountains of Israel which have always been waste.

That sounds a whole lot like what is now the nation state of Israel.
A lot of people don't think that battle happens now but far into the future.
Some people think the people of Israel are not of Judah but the descendants of the Israelite tribes that split off. By that same token many think the sticks to be bound back together (Judah and Israel) get into where the people of Judah are today and where the people of Israel are today. That gets into the migrations of the Israelite tribes ever westwards...
Hey, maybe that explains the behavior of California!

Seriously though, I'm still trying to figure it out to my own satisfaction. There's timing, migrations and geography involved.

[Alabama358]

And from Ez.38:8
"After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them."

So...
It's the latter years.
It's a land brought back from the sword.
It's gathered out of many people, brought forth out of the nations.
It happens against the mountains of Israel which have always been waste.

That sounds a whole lot like what is now the nation state of Israel.
A lot of people don't think that battle happens now but far into the future.
Some people think the people of Israel are not of Judah but the descendants of the Israelite tribes that split off. By that same token many think the sticks to be bound back together (Judah and Israel) get into where the people of Judah are today and where the people of Israel are today. That gets into the migrations of the Israelite tribes ever westwards...
Hey, maybe that explains the behavior of California!

Seriously though, I'm still trying to figure it out to my own satisfaction. There's timing, migrations and geography involved.

Yeah, the thing that stuck out to me was verse 11

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Israel in its current state is about the most walled-barred-gated nation there is. Seems like just about everyone over there wants to destroy them.
I think it will be a few years before they will feel like they are dwelling in safety without the need for security, walls, bars, Iron Dome Missile system, tanks etc.

[Good Cheer]

The part about unwalled villages, that's like a hamlet, a small place that doesn't have a wall put up around it. Looked at in that context could it be the settlements the Israelis have been putting up when taking over real estate? I don't know but like I said, I have to look at it.

[1hole]

... So is God and Jesus coming down to dwell with man on an earth that's been made new, or coming to take Christians away to somewhere else?

Thunder it's both, but with a significant time difference.

It's easy for us to read more out of scripture than is actually there; that's how we get a lot of misunderstood doctrine. Reading what the Bible actually says and does not say tends to open up what it really means.

First, everyone should understand that the Book of Revelation does not give a specific sequence of end times. The written word cannot be timed precisely because some of the events are sequential and some of it runs consecutive but, in general, the Bible's timeline is nearly linear. Its sequence tells us the next major historical spiritual event will be the Rapture.

The last major historical event of this age will see Jesus' second coming to Earth with his church in tow; then Jesus will stand with his own feet on the earth in Jerusalem. A great crack (earthquake?) will split east and west from the great sea (Mediterranean) and the Dead Sea before He establishes his 1,000 year Kingdom on the present earth.

The rapture is NOT the second coming. The RAPTURE will come suddenly and without warning, not at some clearly marked halfway point in the Tribulation. The "sudden surprise" of Jesus' calling UP the Church, his blood bought Bride, is the Rapture! So, and again, the rapture of the saints rising in the air to meet with our Lord is NOT his "second coming".

In the "snatched up" rapture, Jesus will suddenly call believers (both the dead and alive) to "come up here" (in the sky) where He (physically) already is. He will collect us in the air and take us back UP to his Father's home for a week of years (7) where He has prepared a place for us in his Father's heavenly home for our Biblical wedding celebration in the present "heaven".

Note that our rapture call UP to heaven must occur early in the timeline of Revelation; note too that there's no mention of Jesus setting foot on the earth at that time. Also note that nothing at all is said in the Bible about the "church" between chap. 4 and the 21st chapter when Jesus and we disappear and reappear in return to earth, and it sure doesn't say anything about a mid-trib rapture! I think what the Bible does not say about man's dogmatic predictions of an "unknown/unknowable" mid-trib rapture tells us a great deal about such predictions.

The deaths/resurrections of God's Two mid-trib Witnesses AND the Antichrist's desecration of the new Temple will be starting signals for the last 3 1/2 years of the world as we know it. Thus, those great events signal the start of the GREAT Tribulation, but they do not and cannot possibly announce the Rapture because no one will or can know when that is until the moment it happens! Saying otherwise requires reading things into scripture that simply aren't there.

Read what the Bible actually says about end times events. It should be clear that there will be at least seven years of Tribulation between the current - imminent - Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord, not with some well known 3 1/2 years of mid-trib warning. Men striving to make the "surprise" call of the Rapture - catching the Bride of Christ - up into heaven as being one with the well described (and well seen) second coming of the Lord riding back down to earth with his Bride on white horses are wrong. A "sudden rapture" coming exactly at some Tribulation midpoint simply does not fit the Book's specific words or general timeline.

A "new heaven and new earth" will follow the Tribulation AND the 1,000 year/millennial kingdom, meaning Jesus' first earthly kingdom must be sometime after the Tribulation but before all of the dead of all ages have been resurrected and tried before the Lord's Great White Throne of eternal judgement.

Finally, everyone should know the great white trial won't be to determine the guilt or innocence of anyone; fact is, we're all guilty. The G.W.T. judgement will only be a final separation of sheep and goats, etc., and eternal sentencing hearings for the spiritually unclean souls who have rejected Jesus' freely offered heavenly gift to his followers. (See John 3:16-18)

[Alabama358]

Thunder it's both, but with a significant time difference.

It's easy for us to read more out of scripture than is actually there; that's how we get a lot of misunderstood doctrine. Reading what the Bible actually says and does not say tends to open up what it really means. You are saying that you have to look at what the bible doesn't say to figure out what it does say, are you saying that you think that scripture is so incomplete that you have to read between the lines?
I suppose if you have no actual clear scripture to support your doctrine, that system works. Laughable

First, everyone should understand that the Book of Revelation does not give a specific sequence of end times. The written word cannot be timed precisely because some of the events are sequential and some of it runs consecutive but, in general, the Bible's timeline is nearly linear. Its sequence tells us the next major historical spiritual event will be the Rapture. Is is no wonder that you are so confused

The last major historical event of this age will see Jesus' second coming to Earth with his church in tow; then Jesus will stand with his own feet on the earth in Jerusalem. A great crack (earthquake?) will split east and west from the great sea (Mediterranean) and the Dead Sea before He establishes his 1,000 year Kingdom on the present earth.

The rapture is NOT the second coming. The RAPTURE will come suddenly and without warning, not at some clearly marked halfway point in the Tribulation. The "sudden surprise" of Jesus' calling UP the Church, his blood bought Bride, is the Rapture! So, and again, the rapture of the saints rising in the air to meet with our Lord is NOT his "second coming". Are you making a fake argument here, I don't remember anyone saying that a mid-trib rapture was the 2nd coming. Please reference post # or is this just something else you are making up?

In the "snatched up" rapture, Jesus will suddenly call believers (both the dead and alive) to "come up here" (in the sky) where He (physically) already is. He will collect us in the air and take us back UP to his Father's home for a week of years (7) where He has prepared a place for us in his Father's heavenly home for our Biblical wedding celebration in the present "heaven". No where in the entire bible does it say that we will be taken up for a 7 year Biblical wedding celebration... that is either just a bold face lie you tell or you AGAIN are regurgitating someone else's thoughts. which is it?

Note that our rapture call UP to heaven must occur early in the timeline of Revelation; note too that there's no mention of Jesus setting foot on the earth at that time. Also note that nothing at all is said in the Bible about the "church" between chap. 4 and the 21st chapter when Jesus and we disappear and reappear in return to earth, and it sure doesn't say anything about a mid-trib rapture! I think what the Bible does not say about man's dogmatic predictions of an "unknown/unknowable" mid-trib rapture tells us a great deal about such predictions. Is it the Church, The Muslims, The Un-Saved that show up in Revalation 7:9
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

If it is not the church, then who pray tell is it? Here is a hint... you don't need to read between the lines to get the answer, just keep reading down a few verses.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The deaths/resurrections of God's Two mid-trib Witnesses AND the Antichrist's desecration of the new Temple will be starting signals for the last 3 1/2 years of the world as we know it. Thus, those great events signal the start of the GREAT Tribulation, but they do not and cannot possibly announce the Rapture because no one will or can know when that is until the moment it happens! Saying otherwise requires reading things into scripture that simply aren't there.

Read what the Bible actually says about end times events. It should be clear that there will be at least seven years of Tribulation between the current - imminent - Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of the Lord, not with some well known 3 1/2 years of mid-trib warning. Men striving to make the "surprise" call of the Rapture - catching the Bride of Christ - up into heaven as being one with the well described (and well seen) second coming of the Lord riding back down to earth with his Bride on white horses are wrong. A "sudden rapture" coming exactly at some Tribulation midpoint simply does not fit the Book's specific words or general timeline.You say... "Read what the Bible actually says"
OK, gives us a specific verse to support your position and not just your conjecture.
You wont because there isn't specific scripture that backs this false doctrine

A "new heaven and new earth" will follow the Tribulation AND the 1,000 year/millennial kingdom, meaning Jesus' first earthly kingdom must be sometime after the Tribulation but before all of the dead of all ages have been resurrected and tried before the Lord's Great White Throne of eternal judgement.

Finally, everyone should know the great white trial won't be to determine the guilt or innocence of anyone; fact is, we're all guilty. The G.W.T. judgement will only be a final separation of sheep and goats, etc., and eternal sentencing hearings for the spiritually unclean souls who have rejected Jesus' freely offered heavenly gift to his followers. (See John 3:16-18)

See above...
You can put lipstick on a pig but in the end, it is still a pig.

[1hole]

'Bamma, I posted what I believe about the end times. And you know it's not necessary for you to remember the details of other people's mid-trib posts about the possible time of the Rapture.

You know this forum is simply a web thread, it's not a systematic theology course. To that, no one knows better than me that I'm no text book author nor am I Biblically inerrant. I'm only a Bible student but I am a serious student seeking the full truth. I can only give (often abbreviated) truth as I see it. Take it or leave it, I've posted what I believe but I'm not even trying to teach you an expansive lesson in end times theology. (I can't change a closed mind in a brief web post anyway.)

What I hope to do is provide others a basis for prayerfully study and think (or maybe re-think?) what they believe about the end. Your snotty (red flagged) comments attacking my posts offer nothing thoughtful to others.

It's interesting that you often go to great length to say I'm wrong but, at the end, you never offer any positive alternatives to the discussion; why is that? If you believe I'm wrong on any posted point why not explain what YOU think is right instead of just sputtering an immature stream of negative cheap-shots? I would welcome that because then we might actually have a respectful discussion of our differences! That's clearly not possible today and I refuse to wrestle in the mud with you.

For now, know that wherever you are and whatever you do, I'm hoping you have a really great day in the Lord!

[.429&H110]

Keep on expanding God's Word!
Good Lord, 266 posts from 26 correspondents!
May God bless the reading of His Holy Word!

At the end of the Book of John:

25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

I just went back to OP Thundarstick's question,
re-read the whole thread,
much more might be said.

I hope one day to meet John and ask him...

Meanwhile, beware of isogeny!
Do not put things into the Bible
that you would like to see there.
Not saying anyone did, but beware the curse.

"Trust in the Lord, with all thy heart,
and lean not unto thy own understanding,
in all thy ways exalteth Him
and He shall direct thy paths".
Amen.

Billy Graham was once asked:
"Is there anything in the Bible that you don't understand that bothers you?"
"Madam", he replied,"It's the things I do understand, that bother me".

My church helps to sponsor a mission to Ukraine
John and Cathy O'Brien, God bless them.
A few years ago the Lord directed them to build a church in Kharkiv.
Directed them to a small valley, to dig a big foundation, dig a well, build a church.
The locals laughed at them until the shells flew. That church still stands.
Miraculous.
Cathy came by our church last week, gave a witness to God's power.
John is a chaplain in their army, God help him.

Studying God's word is a good thing.
Doing God's word is a good thing.

As Abe Lincoln said, "If a man can't skin, he's got to hold a leg".

Pray for our missionarys everywhere.
Remember, we are missionarys, too.
When the villagers start throwing rocks at you,
you know you have their attention...

[Alabama358]

'Bamma, I posted what I believe about the end times. And you know it's not necessary for you to remember the details of other people's mid-trib posts about the possible time of the Rapture.

You know this forum is simply a web thread, it's not a systematic theology course. To that, no one knows better than me that I'm no text book author nor am I Biblically inerrant. I'm only a Bible student but I am a serious student seeking the full truth. I can only give (often abbreviated) truth as I see it. Take it or leave it, I've posted what I believe but I'm not even trying to teach you an expansive lesson in end times theology. (I can't change a closed mind in a brief web post anyway.) I thought it was called "Deep Theological Discussion" not Simple Web Thread

What I hope to do is provide others a basis for prayerfully study and think (or maybe re-think?) what they believe about the end. Your snotty (red flagged) comments attacking my posts offer nothing thoughtful to others. I can change to blue if red offends your eyes, or is it the systematic accountability of your statements that you don't like?
It seems pretty arrogant and presumptuous for you to say that my post offer "nothing thoughtful to others"... When did you start thinking and speaking for all others?

It's interesting that you often go to great length to say I'm wrong but, at the end, you never offer any positive alternatives to the discussion; why is that? If you believe I'm wrong on any posted point why not explain what YOU think is right instead of just sputtering an immature stream of negative cheap-shots? DO you really think the large multitude of Bible scripture that I have posted in this very long thread was a stream of negative cheap shots? I would welcome that because then we might actually have a respectful discussion of our differences! That's clearly not possible today and I refuse to wrestle in the mud with you.

For now, know that wherever you are and whatever you do, I'm hoping you have a really great day in the Lord! Thank you, every day in the LORD is a really great day

The Biggest mistake people usually make is that they get to thinking that they and/or their opinion is as important to other folks as is is to themselves.

Stated differently... I was not attacking you or your opinion, my intention was to offer what i believe to be corrections to false doctrine (by posting actual chapter and verse scripture) and by doing so could hopefully keep young believers that are still on the milk of the word from falling down the Dispensationalism John Nelson Darby rabbit hole.

[Alabama358]

Keep on expanding God's Word!
Good Lord, 266 posts from 26 correspondents!
May God bless the reading of His Holy Word!

At the end of the Book of John:

25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

I just went back to OP Thundarstick's question,
re-read the whole thread,
much more might be said.

I hope one day to meet John and ask him...

Meanwhile, beware of isogeny!
Do not put things into the Bible
that you would like to see there.
Not saying anyone did, but beware the curse. Very sound advice!

"Trust in the Lord, with all thy heart,
and lean not unto thy own understanding,
in all thy ways exalteth Him
and He shall direct thy paths".
Amen.

Billy Graham was once asked:
"Is there anything in the Bible that you don't understand that bothers you?"
"Madam", he replied,"It's the things I do understand, that bother me".

My church helps to sponsor a mission to Ukraine
John and Cathy O'Brien, God bless them.
A few years ago the Lord directed them to build a church in Kharkiv.
Directed them to a small valley, to dig a big foundation, dig a well, build a church.
The locals laughed at them until the shells flew. That church still stands.
Miraculous.
Cathy came by our church last week, gave a witness to God's power.
John is a chaplain in their army, God help him.

Studying God's word is a good thing.
Doing God's word is a good thing.

As Abe Lincoln said, "If a man can't skin, he's got to hold a leg". What a great quote!

Pray for our missionarys everywhere.
Remember, we are missionarys, too.
When the villagers start throwing rocks at you,
you know you have their attention... In the military we had a saying... when you start taking fire, you know you are over the target

God Bless John and Cathy

[.429&H110]

No matter how you read it or where, God's word will never return empty.

Thanks for the kind words

[Good Cheer]

The Biggest mistake people usually make is that they get to thinking that they and/or their opinion is as important to other folks as is is to themselves.

Stated differently... I was not attacking you or your opinion, my intention was to offer what i believe to be corrections to false doctrine (by posting actual chapter and verse scripture) and by doing so could hopefully keep young believers that are still on the milk of the word from falling down the Dispensationalism John Nelson Darby rabbit hole.

Ever few generations or so a new ism crops up and we start trying to teach the bible how to jump through that shiny new hoop.

[.429&H110]

Everybody has their own unique relationship with God.
I can't prescribe how to get along with your wife
anymore than prescribe how to get along with God.

Fortunately we have our Owner's Manual.

I lived awhile in Hanover NH my kids born at the old Dartmouth-Hitchcock
I lived next door to a cardiologist md-phd, a doctor-doctor.
That man studied doctoring for thirty years, now post-doc.
Wasn't smart enough to mow his lawn, or keep his dogs at home.
Dumb enough to feed deer in his backyard, and get mad at deer hunters,
who were mad at his dogs. His wife was angry because he wasn't making millions, yet.
He moved to Chicago.

My point is we can study as apprentices
but journey as journeymen, working our trade, sojourning until
we might become masters to teach the apprentices.


That system worked fine for a long time,
but then we got universities.
If you kick God out of a school, who is running it? Yah, him.

For me, I am stuck on Matthew 24:14 "...and then the end shall come."
The acolytes of scientism proclaim a proton has a half-life
one day this will all fizz away in their religion.
They have to admit to a beginning and an end,
so I see hope for them. They just need a better telescope.
It's those with "nothing to lose" that must be reached, and soon.

"And then the end shall come" as our loving God wills, Hallelujah!

[Alabama358]

Ever few generations or so a new ism crops up and we start trying to teach the bible how to jump through that shiny new hoop.

Isms... lol
I am not sure why folks take to fables but I guess it is predictable.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Thundarstick]

Isms... lol
I am not sure why folks take to fables but I guess it is predictable.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Amen!

[Good Cheer]

Isms... lol
I am not sure why folks take to fables but I guess it is predictable.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Sometimes it almost seems as though a new marketing campaign gets thought up.
Not a nice thought but admittedly one that occurred to me a couple of decades ago when looking at the 1830's pre-trib.

[Good Cheer]

We're really busy these days but I want to make time to pay attention to Heiser on this subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyaD3H90IiU

[ioon44]

I always like Dr Heiser's teaching's, sad he was taken so soon.

[Good Cheer]

Beside his teachings concerning scripture I was hoping he'd create a third novel in the series he started, based upon his teachings and also present day happenings within government, the military and the spiritual realms. Wanted to see what he had in mind for the third. Reckon I could go back and read the first two novels again and pay more attention to where he was going with it.

[lightload]

I'm 75 and grew up in a country church in Mississippi. Those teachings continue to guide me. I've noticed that some religions including mine have de-emphasized Salvation and stress secular concerns. Teachings reflect cultural change that some call progressive. My opinion is many people scoff that Satan exists or that there is a Hell. In jails and prisons I have seen children and adults taken over by Satan. They would look at you with the eyes of a goat.

[pmer]

Sorry but I'm going to give the horse another kick just to make sure.

The 144,000 I was taught were actually from 10 Jewish tribes because 2 tribes failed at something early on. I think it had something to do with God's jealousy of other gods and those 2 tribes going farther away from God than other tribes. Is this what Good Cheer has been eluding to and what Alex touched on?

I can't remember which tribes off hand I'd have dig in my notes. My pastor is a retired seminary professor and trained at Dallas. That's whom I got this from.