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Thread: When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

  1. #241
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Thanks for link to read. I have to run an errand but will go through it later.

    I did note that it leaves out that some think that there will be a five month tribulation.

  2. #242
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    An interesting treatment of the rapture question.
    Dr. Michael Heiser: Are you a splitter or a joiner?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA6Vcuas5-g&t=155s

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    An interesting treatment of the rapture question.
    Dr. Michael Heiser: Are you a splitter or a joiner?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA6Vcuas5-g&t=155s


    Well worth watching, I can spend hours listing to Dr. Michael Heiser teachings.

  4. #244
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    After the church age of Revelation 1-3 and continuing on in Revelation 4, we read...

    4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3 And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, 6 and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.
    Lots of glorious things to unpack here. God is on the throne and is preeminate. But who are these elders on those thones? It is the church. See Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation? The elders have crowns. Only Christians, believers, receive crowns. See What are the five heavenly crowns that believers can receive in Heaven?

    Before the throne are seven torches. These seven lights, these seven burning torches again represent the seven churches of Revelation chapters 1-3. The church is not the light. Christ is the light. But the church bears the light. See: What are the seven candlesticks / lampstands of Revelation?

    Also before the throne is a sea of glass. A sea can represent a large number of people. It is smooth as glass. It is calm. It is still. Again, I believe it is all the redeemed in Christ and echos Psalm 46. “Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.” - Psalm 46:10

    At this point in Revelation, the church is in heaven and the tribulation still hasn't started yet.

    Have a blessed day everyone!
    “If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan

  5. #245
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioon44 View Post
    Well worth watching, I can spend hours listing to Dr. Michael Heiser teachings.
    And I will again.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WbG..._--WDu&index=1

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder Stick View Post
    Addressing the bold part, The book of Revelation has a description of the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation. Chapters 1-3 are Christ describing the church age. Chapter 4 begins with "After this..." After what? After the church age. From this point on, the church is not mentioned again and the tribulation starts. (Well, the church is mentioned at the end of Revelation in the epilogue but the church is not on the earth during any of the tribulation period.) Chapter 4 continues, "... I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here..." That is how it will be for the church, us believers, when Christ takes us home. It is after the church age and before the tribulation.
    Stick, the link you gave us in your #240 post is the best, easiest to follow and most detailed "short story" of end times events I've ever seen.

    When I first grasped that Holy Spirit infused believers (the Church age, the blood-bought Bride of Christ) of this age and those believers coming before and after us isn't quite the same it was like the sun had suddenly entered a previously half closed door and I LOVE it!

    NOW I know how those who rightly understand the end times can be encouraged (1 Thess 4:16-18) instead of horrified when thinking about the Rapture and the loving kindness - grace - of King Jesus!

    Thank you sir, you do good work!

  7. #247
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Seeing Russia saying no to a global government controlled by the west and knowing they will come against the planned seat of that government on the east end of the Med, this is a geopolitical lead up that has fascinated me for decades, I guess ever since I pulled out the world atlas and started labeling the regions. Whether we will be physically here to see it or not, Ez38 really is forming up. People who hold to a pre-trib rapture theory have argued back and forth over whether a fly away would happen before those forces are gathered to the fight; now just as with the technologies for the global financial and control system, the political realignments are actually being set in place. I'd think that people who expect to be raptured away would be watching world events and be rather... expecting.

  8. #248
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    ... Ez38 really is forming up. People who hold to a pre-trib rapture theory have argued back and forth over whether a fly away would happen before those forces are gathered to the fight; ....
    "Argued back and forth?" by pretribers? Nope; that's another one falsely attributed to us, at least it's new to me. Fact is, I've never read (or even heard of) pre-rapture Psm 83 or Ezk 38-39 wars being "argued back and forth" before reading your post!

    Since you raise the issue, it appears to me that both the Ezk 38-39 and Psm 83 wars are probably pre-rapture and certainly pre-trib. Either way, while it's all mildly interesting speculation it really doesn't matter because it doesn't impact any orthodox Christian doctrine.

    I'd think that people who expect to be raptured away would be watching world events and be rather... expecting.
    We do.

  9. #249
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    "Argued back and forth?" by pretribers? Nope; that's another one falsely attributed to us, at least it's new to me. Fact is, I've never read (or even heard of) pre-rapture Psm 83 or Ezk 38-39 wars being "argued back and forth" before reading your post!

    Since you raise the issue, it appears to me that both the Ezk 38-39 and Psm 83 wars are probably pre-rapture and certainly pre-trib. Either way, while it's all mildly interesting speculation it really doesn't matter because it doesn't impact any orthodox Christian doctrine.



    We do.
    "Nope; that's another one falsely attributed to us."

    That's a quite a quote right there.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Roger that. It takes a little knowledge of how Jewish weddings of that day were done to understand that the expectant bride had to stay at home and ready for her coming groom at all times because she wouldn't know the time of his coming.
    Well 1Hole... My guess is that you are not a Jew or Hebrew and probably don't have any friends that are traditional Jewish families from Israel nor have you traveled to Israel and done an in depth study on the traditional Jewish wedding.
    So I submit that your statement is nothing more then you AGAIN regurgitating someone else's thoughts and trying to make them your own (see Markopolo's Post back on page 3)

    It was no surprise that the groom WAS coming and when he did he would then take her back to his father's house to consummate the marriage.

    Right again.

    Some folk, in their anti-semitic efforts to replace the Jews in God's heart and substitute the massively gentile church, trip over their own feet by trying to force an identical union of Jews and the church in order to eliminate the eternal promises God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; that's a mistake. Yeah you know how those filthy anti-semites are... you know like Paul of Tarsus who wrote...
    Philippians 3:5-7
    5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
    7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

    Paul seems to have a pretty good pedigree as a Hebrew of the Hebrews, so how is it that he could be so anti-semitic writing such things as

    Romans 2:11
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Romans 2:28-29
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
    Galatians 3:7
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    Galatians 3:28
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


    We also need to know that the Bride - the Church - is all believers from Pentecost to the Rapture. That would make Matthew 24: 1-51 a sermon to "The Church" "The Bride" where Christ himself says that he will be back at the mid point of the 7 year period to collect His Saints, The Church, His Bride.

    In this historical time frame - this dispensation - we have been made spiritual Jews, with all the benefits therein, but we still are not "the apple of God's eye" Jews with a long list of unique promises from God. We gentiles are adopted/grafted in and are fully loved but we won't be dealt with exactly the same as the bloodline Jews in eternity.




    I believe all of that earthly cleaning and renewal work will be going on during the final G.W.Throne court hearings, but that's only my opinion based on the needed sequential timing, I have no scriptural foundation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markopolo View Post
    Actually, to understand what the “rapture” is, you first need to understand what a traditional Galilee wedding looks like. When the father of the groom finally tells the groom to go get his bride, a procession goes to the brides house where she is “caught up” into a modified chair that is carried in the air to deliver the bride to the grooms house.

    Everything that was spoken concerning the rapture and second coming was spoken to the disciples and they understood a Galilee wedding. Jesus spoke to them in terms that they completely understood. That is also why Jesus said “only the Father knows the day and time.” If you understand a Galilee wedding, you know that only the father of the groom knows when everything is in order, the feast is prepared, and can give the command to the groom to go claim his bride.

    Nowhere else in the Middle East is a wedding done quite like it is traditionally in Galilee.

    Marko
    Try to have some original thoughts inspired maybe by the Holy Spirit.
    And if you feel the need to post someone else's thoughts, try sticking to scriptures from the Bible and not TikTok or Youtube or something you read in someone else's post. you will seem less like a fraud pushing a false doctrine. SEE ABOVE

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    Seeing Russia saying no to a global government controlled by the west and knowing they will come against the planned seat of that government on the east end of the Med, this is a geopolitical lead up that has fascinated me for decades, I guess ever since I pulled out the world atlas and started labeling the regions. Whether we will be physically here to see it or not, Ez38 really is forming up. People who hold to a pre-trib rapture theory have argued back and forth over whether a fly away would happen before those forces are gathered to the fight; now just as with the technologies for the global financial and control system, the political realignments are actually being set in place. I'd think that people who expect to be raptured away would be watching world events and be rather... expecting.
    Ezekiel 38
    1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

    As in the Battle of Gog and Magog?

  12. #252
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Ezekiel 38
    1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

    As in the Battle of Gog and Magog?
    In particular, I'm digging into a study of Ezekiel 38 as relates to the Revelation 6 rider of the white horse and as a separate step the revealing of the man of sin. It's a pretty tall order to jump off into but I'm trying to look at those things as a sequence of events. And while I'm at it, necessarily the murder of the two witnesses, bearing in mind of course the days being shortened. A fun project but just the same wish me luck.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    In particular, I'm digging into a study of Ezekiel 38 as relates to the Revelation 6 rider of the white horse and as a separate step the revealing of the man of sin. It's a pretty tall order to jump off into but I'm trying to look at those things as a sequence of events. And while I'm at it, necessarily the murder of the two witnesses, bearing in mind of course the days being shortened. A fun project but just the same wish me luck.
    Sounds like a great study...keep us updated on your findings
    Revelation 6 is one of my favorite reads. Chock-full of great end times info!

    Ezekiel 38 probably needs to be paired up with Revelation 20:7-8 with regards to a battle of Gog & Magog

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    Obsessively this battle doesn't take place until after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

  14. #254
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Who couldn't like Gary Stearman? From the earliest days with J. R. Church he has been a pleasure. This presentation is about why a rapture. Hope some will enjoy. Perhaps some will recognize the pitfalls of interpreting scripture to suit a particular persuasion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMqK_Peudxk

  15. #255
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabama358 View Post
    Sounds like a great study...keep us updated on your findings
    Revelation 6 is one of my favorite reads. Chock-full of great end times info!

    Ezekiel 38 probably needs to be paired up with Revelation 20:7-8 with regards to a battle of Gog & Magog

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    Obsessively this battle doesn't take place until after the 1000 year reign of Christ.
    For me the jury still still out on the timing of the Ezekiel 38-39 conflict. I'm not sold on it being at the end of a thousand year reign but in no wise am I ruling it out.

  16. #256
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    I had an interesting conversation with my pastor after last week’s service and he said that the people who are taken will be the damned and the saved will remain the same way it happened with Noah and the flood.
    I have never heard of it explained that way!

  17. #257
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Hey delta,
    Another way some see it is that the next time will be a flood of lies, that those looking to be flown away will be deceived and that knowing the deception is coming will prevent you from falling for the fake savior (the one that comes before the real one).

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltaenterprizes View Post
    I had an interesting conversation with my pastor after last week’s service and he said that the people who are taken will be the damned and the saved will remain the same way it happened with Noah and the flood.
    I have never heard of it explained that way!
    Interesting perspective from your pastor. In Noah’s Flood, the wicked perished and Noah’s family was saved by the ark. The ark representing our shelter and salvation in Christ Jesus.

    The scenario of Lot snd his family being brought out and saved from the destruction of evil Sodom and Gomorrah is representative of God’s M.O. His “method of operation.” He will not punish saved people when He executes judgement upon an evil and wicked land. See also the parable of the wheat and tares.
    “If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth.” - Ronald Reagan

  19. #259
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    As relates to the run up to Christ's return, Tim Alberino has been concentrating upon who's who during the run up, who the helpers are and how it is as the days of Noah. His works are well thought out and his presentations are not hard to follow.
    Hope someone enjoys.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r0Kd7-K8dU

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    For me the jury still still out on the timing of the Ezekiel 38-39 conflict. I'm not sold on it being at the end of a thousand year reign but in no wise am I ruling it out.
    Hey Cheer,
    I was re-reading Ezekiel 38 this morning and it got me to thinking about this thread... Mainly verse 11 & 12 and there bouts

    11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

    12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.


    Do you think that it is talking about attacking the kingdom of Israel ?

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