When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

[1hole]

You ask me to "get over Matthew 24"

My Lord, God, and Savior said:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Sorry, I wrote imperfectly.

I meant you need to "get over" limiting yourself to Matt 24 to truly understand the end times because there is much more scripture dealing with that topic. A true understanding has to include extensive end times passages from Revelation, Danial, Thess, Psalms, Ezekiel, and shorter bits from several other books. Only with a broad end times knowledge can we actually get a proper understanding of the original message.

For instance, Revelation expands to tell us the end times preaching of the gospel to all the world is meant for the 144,000 who are chosen and marked to be Jesus' world wide witnesses are taken from the 12 tribes of Israel during the 7 Years of Tribulation so they cannot be the world wide gentile church before the Tribulation. (That does NOT mean the church has no responsibility to reach as many lost people as we can today but it does mean that the end times work of the marked 144,000 Jews is not written to us.)

[Good Cheer]

You think that's a 144,000 Jews ?

[1hole]

You think that's a 144,000 Jews ?

Cheer, it really doesn't matter what you or I "think" about who the 144,000 end time witnesses might be, does it?

The Bible clearly tell us they will be Jews (see Rev 7:4). Therefore they are, or more precisely to the point, "YES!", they will be Jews.

Well, okay, they'll certainly be Jews unless you're a Jehovah Witness. Or a Mormon. Or a Christian Scientist (which is neither Christian nor science by the way). Or a 7th Day Adventist. Or one of a few other religious cults claiming to be Christian .... ???

[Good Cheer]

No, scripture doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews.
Rev. 7:4 doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews.
You referenced it yourself so you know it doesn't say that.
Skip on over to 22:19.

[farmbif]

dont know where the idea for rapture came from. but, when its your time its your time so you might as well try to live your life as if you were to be judged at any time. often wondered if thanksgiving is the rapture for turkey's

[1hole]

No, scripture doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews. Rev. 7:4 doesn't say the 144,000 are Jews.
You referenced it yourself so you know it doesn't say that.
Skip on over to 22:19.

Ah Cheer, once again you strain mightily to produce a scriptural distinction that doesn't make any difference to the message. (And, once again, you imply that those who disagree with you are spiritually ignorant but without you having the courage to say what you think is right; why do you do that?)

The Rev 7 passages tell us exactly who the 144,000 are. They are Jews so their children are Jews of the same tribe. That's enough to tell anyone the 144,000 witnesses are all Jews of the highest order.

You should go back and reread the whole of what Rev 7:4 is only a snippet. And do try to get the whole picture from 7:1 to 7:8. Note that scripture lists the obviously Jewish tribes - save Dan - and that each of the named 12 tribes contribute 12,000; surely that means something even to you!

Watch out for Rev 22:19. I believe your desire to delete Jews from that witness list says more about you than it does about Dan. Or me.

[Good Cheer]

Are you saying you believe all the tribes are "Jews"?

[ioon44]

[QUOTE=Good Cheer;5475060]Are you saying you believe all the tribes are "Jews"?[/QUOTE

Revelation 7:4
New International Version
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

New Living Translation
And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

English Standard Version
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Berean Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

Berean Literal Bible
And I heard the number of those having been sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

King James Bible
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

New King James Version
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

New American Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

NASB 1995
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

NASB 1977
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Amplified Bible
And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Christian Standard Bible
And I heard the number of the sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:

American Standard Version
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And I heard the number who were sealed - 144,000, from all the tribes of Israel:

Contemporary English Version
Then I heard how many people had been marked on the forehead. There were 144,000, and they came from every tribe of Israel:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I heard the number of them that were signed, an hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel.

Good News Translation
And I was told that the number of those who were marked with God's seal on their foreheads was 144,000. They were from the twelve tribes of Israel,

International Standard Version
I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of Israel:

Literal Standard Version
And I heard the number of those sealed—one hundred forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

New American Bible
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites:

NET Bible
Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:

[Good Cheer]

[QUOTE=ioon44;5475073]

Are you saying you believe all the tribes are "Jews"?[/QUOTE

Revelation 7:4
New International Version
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

New Living Translation
And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

English Standard Version
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Berean Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

Berean Literal Bible
And I heard the number of those having been sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

King James Bible
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

New King James Version
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

New American Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

NASB 1995
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

NASB 1977
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Amplified Bible
And I heard how many were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand; [twelve thousand] sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Christian Standard Bible
And I heard the number of the sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites:

American Standard Version
And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And I heard the number who were sealed - 144,000, from all the tribes of Israel:

Contemporary English Version
Then I heard how many people had been marked on the forehead. There were 144,000, and they came from every tribe of Israel:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I heard the number of them that were signed, an hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel.

Good News Translation
And I was told that the number of those who were marked with God's seal on their foreheads was 144,000. They were from the twelve tribes of Israel,

International Standard Version
I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of Israel:

Literal Standard Version
And I heard the number of those sealed—one hundred forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

New American Bible
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites:

NET Bible
Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:

ioon44,
I know what scripture says. What are you saying?

[1hole]

Good Cheer:
ioon44,
I know what scripture says. What are you saying?

Goodness Cheer,what does the Bible say that you disagree with? You know that scripture is quite clear about who the 144,000 are and ioon went to a lot of trouble to provide you with specific data but you brush it off like chaff. Wow.

With all that knowledge, you still disagree with the world and you do so without a word of defense for another of the many theological points you get so hung up on; why is that? I mean, you're always ready leap to the front and post that those who disagree with you are wrong but then that you refuse to say what YOU believe ! That's odd.

Judgements about people we don't know are often wrong but, assuming you have good intentions, I will once again ask you to explain why/how you are so insistent that all of the quoted Bible passages about both the Rapture and Tribulation AND the 144,000 Jewish witnesses are wrong and explain why everyone who believes things you don't have been deceived by the "dark side"?

[Good Cheer]

Gentlemen,
Nowhere does scripture even suggest that all the tribes of Israel are Jews.

[.429&H110]

For an odd co-incidence
Yesterday I cribbed 2T4
At church we been reading Timothy for sure.

2 Tim 4:8

8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

All them also that
Love?

I cut out a Playboy cartoon (1970) where she's holding a free love sign and says
The love is free, but the sex costs $20
Made my Dad (1918) laugh every time he opened my toolbox.
Whoever it was that stole that box, needs that lesson more than me.

Jesus came to teach us agape
He will be back to see if we learned agape.
What did we do with the whole idea of "God so loved..."
what did we teach our kids?
Where's our joy?

The old Greeks had trouble with the concept of love.
The new Americans have the same problem.
We're trying to sort out male and female?
"Nothing new under the sun" said Solomon.

"...and then the end shall come" said Jesus

I believe God needs no calendar or wristwatch
but we are so obsessed with our blink of mortality on earth
that He created time so we could track our short lives: Night and Day.
We think we are clever, counting nanoseconds based on the earth's rotation.

What is gravity? The units are per second squared.
What is time? Time requires belief in a standard.
We use the Babylonian 360?
No wonder the old earthers are off by a factor of 10^6 years.
God is like gravity: Everything's great until you fall.

"My ways are not your ways", He said.
We are put here to serve Him, to feed His sheep.
As a witness to His saving Grace I can only say
He Is.

[1hole]

Gentlemen,
Nowhere does scripture even suggest that all the tribes of Israel are Jews.

What is said about the 144,000 witnesses is that they will be 12,000 each from each of the 12 tribes of Jews.

You still refuse to put your beliefs in front of your projections of who you think "real Jews" are and you don't even try to convince anyone of anything except how certain you are of your own beliefs, whatever they may be.

But, if you mean what I've come to suspect you MIGHT mean about spiritual Jews verse bloodline Jews, you have missed some important facts. First, the 144,000 of Revelation really will be Jews and they really will come from their bloodline tribe. Second, they will come as God's chosen, marked, sealed and protected evangelical witnesses to Christ so they WILL be teaching the gospel of salvation by faith in Him, not the laws of Moses; meaning those men will be fully Jews by both blood and spirit.

But, I may be wrong in my guesses about what you might "believe" about anything because you've steadfastly refused to say.

[Thundarstick]

For an odd co-incidence
Yesterday I cribbed 2T4
At church we been reading Timothy for sure.

2 Tim 4:8

8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

All them also that
Love?

I cut out a Playboy cartoon (1970) where she's holding a free love sign and says
The love is free, but the sex costs $20
Made my Dad (1918) laugh every time he opened my toolbox.
Whoever it was that stole that box, needs that lesson more than me.

Jesus came to teach us agape
He will be back to see if we learned agape.
What did we do with the whole idea of "God so loved..."
what did we teach our kids?
Where's our joy?

The old Greeks had trouble with the concept of love.
The new Americans have the same problem.
We're trying to sort out male and female?
"Nothing new under the sun" said Solomon.

"...and then the end shall come" said Jesus

I believe God needs no calendar or wristwatch
but we are so obsessed with our blink of mortality on earth
that He created time so we could track our short lives: Night and Day.
We think we are clever, counting nanoseconds based on the earth's rotation.

What is gravity? The units are per second squared.
What is time? Time requires belief in a standard.
We use the Babylonian 360?
No wonder the old earthers are off by a factor of 10^6 years.
God is like gravity: Everything's great until you fall.

"My ways are not your ways", He said.
We are put here to serve Him, to feed His sheep.
As a witness to His saving Grace I can only say
He Is.

This!

Some strain over gnats, yet miss the camel in the room!



Have any of you pondered that numbers often represent ideas? Forgive seven times? NO! Until 70x7! Most times numbers represent a thought, as in completeness, fullness, finished work, etc.

I guess someone has to be a gnat swatter as well.

[Good Cheer]

What is said about the 144,000 witnesses is that they will be 12,000 each from each of the 12 tribes of Jews.

You still refuse to put your beliefs in front of your projections of who you think "real Jews" are and you don't even try to convince anyone of anything except how certain you are of your own beliefs, whatever they may be.

But, if you mean what I've come to suspect you MIGHT mean about spiritual Jews verse bloodline Jews, you have missed some important facts. First, the 144,000 of Revelation really will be Jews and they really will come from their bloodline tribe. Second, they will come as God's chosen, marked, sealed and protected evangelical witnesses to Christ so they WILL be teaching the gospel of salvation by faith in Him, not the laws of Moses; meaning those men will be fully Jews by both blood and spirit.

But, I may be wrong in my guesses about what you might "believe" about anything because you've steadfastly refused to say.

My beliefs are not in question here except as a dodge for you to create shelter for your nonsense. Scripture is quite clear in this matter. As stated by scripture and noted above, the 144,000 are not all Jews. You should try to abide by Proverbs 6-16 through 6:19 and stick to the word instead of twisting scripture to suit ludicrous theories and trying to bait others into specious arguments.

[ioon44]

Proverbs 6:16-19

16 There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.


Soo what does this have to do with the 144,000 Jewish Evangelist of Revelation 7:4?

[1hole]

My beliefs are not in question here except as a dodge for you to create shelter for your nonsense. Scripture is quite clear in this matter.

Cheer, you love to jump into Biblical conversations by saying others are "wrong" and you do it with little or no meaningful support for what you say. And you've even claimed that those who don't quickly agree with you have been deluded by the "darkside." That's dishonest and hateful. I'm sure you're smart enough to know that approach immediately puts your comments/beliefs into the center of any question you seek to take over. And you seek to do a lot of that.

As stated by scripture and noted above, the 144,000 are not all Jews.

You claim what scripture doesn't say that about the 144,000 being Jews. Like many other things, you say it but you don't even try to prove what you claim except by another of your specious opinions. Loudly proclaiming others to be wrong is hardly an honest Christian apology for your own vaporous beliefs.

IF I'm wrong about this, all you need to prove me the liar you like to imply is to simply tell us which scripture/verse says - or even suggests in this case - that God's 144,000 chosen end time witness team will not be Jews. Right now, everyone but you sees scripture that tells us, in good detail, that none of God's marked and undefiled end times witnesses will be gentiles but will indeed be Jews, both by tribal blood and spirit.

BUT ... if I'm wrong and you know scripture that "clearly" contradicts what's written about those chosen men being Jews in every sense - without anyone else's presumptive distortions one way or the other - just clearly tell us where it is.

You should try to abide by Proverbs 6-16 through 6:19 and stick to the word instead of twisting scripture to suit ludicrous theories and trying to bait others into specious arguments.

"Stick to the word"; don't "twist" it? Well, if I'm "clearly" in "specious" Bible error about every single one of those those witnesses being Jews to their core it should be easy for you to say where I can clearly find it - and I mean in the Bible, not in one of your "ludicrous theories" or a cultic comic book - because when I'm scripturally wrong I want to know it!

But, in all honesty Cheer, I'm not "baiting" you. In fact, I really don't want to cause you to suffer any (Prov 6:16-19 type) hate and discontent at all so please don't bother about my questions if you start to feel that way.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

[1hole]

Ref. Proverbs 6:16-19

Good Cheer to ioon:

16 There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.


Soo what does this have to do with the 144,000 Jewish Evangelist of Revelation 7:4?

ioon, You mistakenly presume Cheer is honestly trying to resolve a theological difference; he is not. What he means is that no one should post anything that makes him feel angry because that makes him angry!

[Good Cheer]

Cheer, you love to jump into Biblical conversations by saying others are "wrong" and you do it with little or no meaningful support for what you say. And you've even claimed that those who don't quickly agree with you have been deluded by the "darkside." That's dishonest and hateful. I'm sure you're smart enough to know that approach immediately puts your comments/beliefs into the center of any question you seek to take over. And you seek to do a lot of that.



You claim what scripture doesn't say that about the 144,000 being Jews. Like many other things, you say it but you don't even try to prove what you claim except by another of your specious opinions. Loudly proclaiming others to be wrong is hardly an honest Christian apology for your own vaporous beliefs.

IF I'm wrong about this, all you need to prove me the liar you like to imply is to simply tell us which scripture/verse says - or even suggests in this case - that God's 144,000 chosen end time witness team will not be Jews. Right now, everyone but you sees scripture that tells us, in good detail, that none of God's marked and undefiled end times witnesses will be gentiles but will indeed be Jews, both by tribal blood and spirit.

BUT ... if I'm wrong and you know scripture that "clearly" contradicts what's written about those chosen men being Jews in every sense - without anyone else's presumptive distortions one way or the other - just clearly tell us where it is.



"Stick to the word"; don't "twist" it? Well, if I'm "clearly" in "specious" Bible error about every single one of those those witnesses being Jews to their core it should be easy for you to say where I can clearly find it - and I mean in the Bible, not in one of your "ludicrous theories" or a cultic comic book - because when I'm scripturally wrong I want to know it!

But, in all honesty Cheer, I'm not "baiting" you. In fact, I really don't want to cause you to suffer any (Prov 6:16-19 type) hate and discontent at all so please don't bother about my questions if you start to feel that way.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

As others have pointed out to you previously, time and again you incorrectly make statements about what scriptures say.
Then you revel in arguments and attacking those who offer you correction. When you are not claiming you have it all figured out.
The scripture in this case says 144,000 will be sealed of the tribes of Israel, also providing the number to be sealed from each tribe, and you say all 144,000 are "Jews". That's nonsense.
As for the claim that you're not baiting, see Proverbs 6:19.

[1hole]

The scripture in this case says 144,000 will be sealed of the tribes of Israel, also providing the number to be sealed from each tribe, and you say all 144,000 are "Jews". That's nonsense.

Nonsense? How so? Once again you only say I'm wrong; that's not much. Once again you protest against Rev 7:4-8 but you still haven't told us who you think those carefully selected and sealed Jews are so the original questions you raised remain unanswered.

You've repeatedly said scripture "clearly" says those 144,000 Jewish witnesses aren't "Jewish". That's not what WE read so we must continue to wonder why you refuse to simply tell us where/how we mere Bible study plebs can look to confirm your own excellent position. ???