When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

[1hole]

Can "we" believers, chose not to be raptured? (you know, those of us that believe in Jesus, but don't believe in Pre-trib rapture.)
...Right after this Pre-trib rapture, will there be any believers left behind?

if not, what is the tribulation all about? if there are no believers to witness to those left behind.

First, God's end times plans are his and that doesn't depend on us believing anything. Those poor folk who are not spiritually "born again" at the Rapture are, by definition, not the Bride of Christ and nothing else matters. There is nothing in scripture to support the odd idea that "some born again folk will go this way and some will go that way" at the pre-trib Rapture, depending on what they believe.

Bottom line, Jesus says his followers will be raised in perfection but non-believers clearly will not and, from that, we can deduce that no believers will ever be left behind. (Matt 7:27 and on) ???

Who will be the primary world wide evangelical witness team during the Tribulation? God's 144,000 selected, protected and empowered Jews! (Rev 7:1-10)

[wmitty]

Is there any chance the tribulation described could be the tribulation 1.1 million Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans in A D 70? Was the Revelation of Jesus Christ written before this event? What does He mean when He says “ in the Glory of the Father “? Could it possibly mean a return in a spiritual , glorified body?

[farmbif]

if you live your life right why should it matter,. when the good lord calls you home that's when you will know. everything else is just talk.

[1hole]

Is there any chance the tribulation described could be the tribulation 1.1 million Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans in A D 70?

There were shadows of the coming Great Tribulation in AD 70 - and there is a minor chunk of Christians who believe it was - but there is no chance the events of AD 70 were the Great Tribulation of Revelation. It's not even close; Revelation's seven years of trials include many horrors that have not yet been seen on earth.

[wmitty]

1hole

Thanks for responding. My concern is that in Revelation 20, it sounds like John is describing the martyrs who were murdered and made spiritually alive: those experiencing the first (spiritual) resurrection. This is happening during Christ’s reign, as I understand it. Just trying to get this all worked out in my mind. Guy’s thanks for everyone commenting; I am very ignorant regarding events taking place in the tribulation and I do appreciate what has been brought to light.

[1hole]

My concern is that in Revelation 20, it sounds like John is describing the martyrs who were murdered and made spiritually alive:

IMHO, you are correct.

Few people get that correct because they mentally squash all physical deaths and all resurrections together as if they stand alone, in isolation from everything else that also applies; that's a mistake.

Just trying to get this all worked out in my mind. ...I am very ignorant regarding events taking place in the tribulation and I do appreciate what has been brought to light.

Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge and that can easily be fixed; refusing to even try to understand what we don't know about scripture is stupid and that can't so easily be fixed. Seems few people try to get anything at all about the Book of Revelation straight because they didn't understand it from the womb and therefore want to believe it doesn't matter; that's another mistake.

To the contrary, Paul tells us that ALL of scripture is given by God for guidance and study (2 Tim 2:15). Revelation twice tells us that specific book is uniquely good (Rev 1:3, 22:7) for everyone to know. Therefore, I don't have the audacity to say that any part of scripture is not worth my study!

I sure don't have everything about end times figured out but, with prayerful study, God has illuminated a lot of things I couldn't see at first and I love it. I commend you for your honest efforts.

[.429&H110]

Last year the godless communists closed my church. We were barred from meeting even outdoors in our big pole barn. Meanwhile three of us died of old age but nobody died of pneumonia. Half the church never came back, then our pastor died of cancer. The wheels are coming off my church. What to do?

Sell the features and benefits of Revelation?

No, tried that.
Sheeple are sure they are going to heaven, or sure there is no heaven.
What to do?
Carpool.
Make sure everyone who wants a ride, gets a ride to church, doctor, groceries.
A church is a service organization, not a debating society.
As Acts says: "...one accord..."

We are a small group on the roof, the Romans are pounding on the door.
America will go the way of the Romans, and the Body of Christ will live on.
There's gonna be tribulation.
Do a study on tribulation.
It's not what the world does to you, tribulation is internal, your doubts and fears, that you let the world do to you. With faith you have no tribulation. Your body might be uncomfortable, while you stand on the promises, but you will live.
How can they kill you, if you're already dead in Christ?
"In the world, not of it".

[dannyd]

The United State's is going the way of any other Pagan Nation that's Old Testament KJB.

I like the old testament because it judges nation's, but the new testament makes me nervous because it judges me.

[.429&H110]

Speaking of Romans...
Romans had a military that conquered the world, then they went broke and got invaded.
When paradigms shift there is a sharp sudden break from the expected.

[Good Cheer]

You guys are into the same conversation as has been ongoing between the better 2/3's and me.

[dannyd]

Unfortunately the United State's has not conquered anything and is still going the way of the Romans.

[Good Cheer]

Could America avoid destruction with repentance? Perhaps. Don't think repentance is going to happen for even a small % of our people but it's still something to pray for. With reference to Ruth Graham's comment about Sodom and Gomorrah, a lot of us could get raptured via fire and brimstone.

[dannyd]

Every Country on Earth as Christians; some of them are eating rat for dinner and having one page of the bible on their person will cost them their life. So No I don't The Lord cares about the United State's just about Christians are here and we are getting fewer everyday.

[Good Cheer]

Fewer indeed. Not just fewer Christians but fewer involved with spirituality in general.
How many people have a clue as to why our country's capitol city has a 666" tall phallic symbol thrusting up through the diagrammatic representation of female genitalia? Or has a clue as to what "The Apotheosis Of Washington" is meant to convey as regards the Osiris myth or why it is surrounded by 72 stars?

Jesus told us to hold, to occupy in hostile territory.


Pardon, was being called to breakfast and dropped a 0.
That obelisk is 6660" tall. But, in occultic number systems you drop the zero any how.

[.429&H110]

America has decided 53 million deaths is enough.
Call the bit a person, baby, fetus, or inconvenient tissue, dead is dead.
Some per cent of these deaths checked the box marked "Black".
There is an old Jewish folktale about a nation that killed children, that tale came true.

Between slavery, the war of northern aggression, and eugenics the Democrats have killed more people than Chairman Mao.

Our Savior makes a lot of promises in His Book.
He promises if we repent, renew, redeem, we will be His people, to live forever with Him.
Or else.

We want to mark the date on our calendar, Lord's Return sounds like a busy day.
If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
Meanwhile go rescue your neighborhood church while you still have one.
While you're there teach Genesis, end with "even so, Jesus come quickly".
As Paul said "...all Scripture...".
Maybe you can awake a woke church.

[Good Cheer]

America has decided 53 million deaths is enough.
Call the bit a person, baby, fetus, or inconvenient tissue, dead is dead.
Some per cent of these deaths checked the box marked "Black".
There is an old Jewish folktale about a nation that killed children, that tale came true.

Between slavery, the war of northern aggression, and eugenics the Democrats have killed more people than Chairman Mao.

Our Savior makes a lot of promises in His Book.
He promises if we repent, renew, redeem, we will be His people, to live forever with Him.
Or else.

We want to mark the date on our calendar, Lord's Return sounds like a busy day.
If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.
Meanwhile go rescue your neighborhood church while you still have one.
While you're there teach Genesis, end with "even so, Jesus come quickly".
As Paul said "...all Scripture...".
Maybe you can awake a woke church.

What Jewish folktale?

[dannyd]

Lets stick to History the United State's will probably never catch up to China, Japan or Russia with the number of people killed.

Also the age of grace is about the individual and not about the nation; that's why when the horn blows all the saved go no matter where they are.

[1hole]

... when the horn blows all the saved go no matter where they are.

Yep; that "Hey yawl, COME ON UP HERE!" horn will blow someday. If you're a born again believer when that horn toots, up you'll go. And you'll do it prior to the start of the great tribulation no matter if you now believe in a pre-trib rapture or not ... I like that!

[Alabama358]

Who will be the primary world wide evangelical witness team during the Tribulation? God's 144,000 selected, protected and empowered Jews! (Rev 7:1-10)[/QUOTE]

Actually, only 12,000 of the 144,00 are "Jews"

Of the tribe of Juda (Jews) 12,000
Of the tribe of Reuban 12,000
Of the tribe of Gad 12,000
Of the tribe of Aser 12,000
Of the tribe of Nepthalim 12,000
Of the tribe of Manasses 12,000
Of the tribe of Simeon 12,000
Of the tribe of Levi 12,000
Of the tribe of Issachar 12,000
Of the tribe of Zabulon 12,000
Of the tribe of Joseph 12,000
Of the tribe of Benjamin 12,000

This happens after the 6th seal is opened just prior to the Wrath of the LORD being poured out. Right on or about Mid-Tribulation at the time of the Rapture... pre-Wrath post-Tribulation

Revelation 7:3 KJV
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads
So at this time the Wrath has not started

At the ceremony sealing of the 144,000... 12K from each of the 12 Tribes after the 6th seal is opened, Mid-Trib (sun and moon darkened, Stars falling from the sky etc.) A great multitude which no man could number appears at the ceremony. (hint: this is the saved-raptured folks)

Revelation 7:4-9 KJV
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


(Key Word AFTER THIS) If this multitude that appears on the scene clothed in white robes of all nations, kindreds and people are not the bride of Christ who pray tell are they?
And if they were raptured 3-1/2 years prior to this that some would have you believe, why do they just now appear?

Revelation 7:14 KJV
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So all of these saved folks appearing at this sealing of the 144,000 ceremony just came out of "Great Tribulation" kind of shoots holes in the whole pre-Trib thingy

[Alabama358]

Misunderstanding End Times and the book of Revelation is not a salvation disqualifier and should not come between brethren.
But it deserves as much enthusiasm and study as every other scripture. Don't be slack
And if you read it as it is written and don't try to do mental gymnastics and Spiritual contortion to make it fit to something that was written by man... It is really not that hard.