When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

[1hole]

By no means do I say that women were not well used by God throughout the Bible ages and it's within the range of possibility some parts of scripture may well have been penned by women but, if so, it was done very quietly. ("Might" and "maybe" don't count.)

I like to use Deborah, the only lady judge we know of, who served God the same as other judges of her time and saved Canaan from an invasion to illustrate the difference between how God sees women vs. how ancient men saw women. (She's in Judges 4 & 5.)

[1hole]

from Post #101, 06-04-2022, 12:10 PM --- I'm seeing nothing in Jesus' words, in Matt 7:21 thru 7:28 about being raised.

You're right, my bad. I was typing from a list that included passages on another topic and accidently included that one.

... what I do see, is what I see that follows throughout the entire bible, that we (the believers) will all go through tribulations ......

I've read no where in the bible that would be any different in the Great Tribulation.

Yeah, you really have but it didn't jump off the page.

You first need to understand that the Great Tribulation period will be much worse than any other and it does not apply to the saints of the Church Age. Only those who were left behind at the Rapture and then come to faith during the Tribulation will experience that. A lot of what Jesus warned about those days refers to his brothers, the Jews, whom He knew would be stubborn to the end.

The furious "wrath of God" has not yet been seen on earth BUT Christians of this age are specifically promised that we will not experience the coming seven years of Tribulation horrors. My faith trusts that promise. (1 Thes 5:9) And I find it comforting; so should you! (1 Thes 4:17-18)

Unlike Noah's little family riding on his boat and Daniel's three unique friends in the fire, MANY Tribulation believers will indeed miserably die along with most of the rest of humanity. And many of those believers will be beheaded for their testimony to Jesus. (Rev 6:9-11)

But those wrath torn believers won't be us. We will have already been "caught up" (raptured) to heaven and be with Jesus. (In fact, getting us outta here before the wrath is poured out seems to be the primary purpose of the Rapture!)

[Alabama358]

If you do not trust the translation, check out the Greek interlinear.

If you believe that GOD is the creator of all. That he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. that even the hairs on your head are numbered.
Is it that hard to believe that he would make available, to the greatest christian nation in the history of mankind his infallible Holy Spirit inspired Word... in their own language? It appears to me that this should take a lot less faith than many other things.

That somehow our nation which evangelizes to the entire world does not have a trusted translation of God's holy word in our language... that we need to somehow go back to Greek (which almost all of the saved folks of this great nation do not speak) to understand scripture? Next time someone draws the "you have to go back to the Greek" sword... to show you their understanding of a scripture or doctrine. Just ask them if they speak Greek Fluently.

Well... it is HOGWASH!
This is the ploy that many folks use when doing mental gymnastics and spiritual contortions (that I spoke of in an earlier post) to try to make teachings and doctrines of man (or their beliefs) fit scripture.
"don't believe what the scriptures says...it is a flawed translation or you have to go back to the Greek for the correct definition of this word or that word" Blah Blah Blah

It is like when a liberal is trying win an argument for the wrong side of the facts and tells you... "Don't believe the facts, let me summarize and paraphrase the information so you can understand it"

Studying Greek and Hebrew and other languages is great, interesting and edifying but not necessary for understanding Gods word... Lean on the Holy Spirit for understanding.

John 14:26 KJV
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

[1hole]

.... our nation which evangelizes to the entire world does not have a trusted translation of God's holy word in our language... that we need to somehow go back to Greek (which almost all of the saved folks of this great nation do not speak) to understand scripture?

Ahhh ... I think you're barking up a wrong tree with that one for at least two reasons.

First, people are people and they do many things for many reasons. I doubt anything ever written (in any language) and any point in time could avoid conflicts of interpretation.

Second, the suggestion for using Greek to study the Bible was aimed at those who want to get very serious about their understandings, it was NOT a general suggestion for everyone.

Fact is, the translation disagreements we have are actually few and really don't affect anything of great theological importance.

Bottom line, in spite of a few loud howls, Christians agree with all "versions" pretty well. Seems to me that those few who howl loudest know the least about it.

Anyone who wants to learn what God wants us to know, should get a mainstream translation and study it - no background of Greek or Latin or Aramaic or Elizabethan English or Ebonics or whatever else is required.

[Good Cheer]

Anyone who studies will catch on and know better than to agree with the preposterous notion that translation differences "really don't affect anything of great theological importance".
But I do agree that you're howling louder all the time.

[1hole]

Anyone who studies will catch on and know better than to agree with the preposterous notion that translation differences "really don't affect anything of great theological importance".

Cheer, that's pretty strong but you cite no errounious instance to validate your post. (Note that I said "orthodox" translation differences don't make much difference to the primary message of the Bible.)

All Bible "translations" are "versions", none are word-for-word, especially including the beloved KJV. All are loaded with trivial differences in word choices and grammar. Fact is, none of the translators has ever had free access to all of the achient scraps of text scattered over the world and even the oldest scraps we have are man made copies that have differences so I must conclude that it's God's message that counts, not the English words. Who today can rightly say which text fragments have or have not been made into a straight English Bible by the word and grammar choices of different translation teams?

All Bible translations are versions (paraphrases actually) of a message from one language into another. In fact,I defy you to point to a specific orthodox Bible version's translation difference that harms any critically important Christian doctrines such as those in John 3:16 or Romans 8:28-30 or Eph 2:8-9, etc.

I'll cite two examples of bad KJV word choices include Elizabethan royal "thees" and "thous" and "Holy Ghost". There were no such royal pronouns in the old languages so it can't dogmatically be said they are right because they're wrong but I say it doesn't matter; do you challenge that?

A "ghost" is the disembodied life force of a physical deadman. Of the Godhead, only Jesus ever had/has a physical body that was once dead but he's no ghost. Therefore, "Holy Ghost" is a very bad English translation of "Holy Spirit". However, no one is going to hell for calling Him a Holy Ghost because that's not the Biblical message. Thus, the precise translation error is again a real but trivial difference, not a diabolical evil, so it doesn't matter.

Most Christians will be well served if they pick a conservative Bible version that isn't a cult's re-written handbook and is easy for them to read and get into it. (Those folk who want to get their feet wet in alternate word choices should first try an Amplified Bible. Most people will never need another version. IMHO. )

[Alabama358]

You start by implying a fallacy of the inerrancy of the 1611 KJV but you should know that God did not give us a Bible written in King James' English. (In fact, English wasn't even a language when the spirit led authors put their pens to scrolls.) If you think that the Holy Spirit ie. GOD was not involved in the translation process... well that is just foolish scoffing.

Languages change over time. A lot of KJV words no longer mean what they once meant. Thing is, scripture didn't start with King James' translation edict and scripture didn't get frozen in time in 1611. Which words no longer mean what they once meant or at least list which words relative to this topic?

The book you call the KJV has had at least three major revisions and many small ones over the years but it's never been fully corrected.
Please list any major or minor revision relative to this topic
In reality, everyone who knows another language is aware that ALL translations between any two languages are and MUST be paraphrased for at least two reasons. First, there are often no direct matching words to translate. Second, each language has unique grammar and figures of speech that often make any so-called "word for word" translation impossible to comprehend. HOGWASH!!! How many languages are spoken in your household? My 6 year old son speaks 3

Darby? Paul didn't know Darby; neither do you. No one inserted the words of the Rapture (or any other orthodox doctrines) into the scriptures so Darby could eventually use it to confuse people who feel good about being confused.

Very interesting and telling that instead of reconciling your belief that the catching up/rapture has to be a total "SURPRISE" as opposed to Paul's teaching that for the saved "children of the light" it will not come upon them as a thief (NOT a total SURPRISE"),

You chose to throw shade on the accuracy of the Bible and state that there has been 3 major and many minor amendments. (however you do not detail any of these major or minor amendments and how they relate to Paul's teaching regarding children of the light vs children of the darkness... my guess is because they have NO relevance or you have no idea and are just regurgitating someone else's thoughts)

Furthermore you do not list which translation would rebuke the KJV of Paul's teaching.

All that said... I will re post the original and give you another shot at reconciling your total SURPRISE doctrine vs Paul's teaching on this matter.


Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing)

1Thessalonians 5: 2-5 KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

So, if we read this as it is written...

A) Folks that believe that this awesome day will not overtake them as a thief (not saying they know the hour or the day, so do not erect that straw man argument) are "children of the light" "and children of the day"

B) Folks that believe this awesome day has to be a complete "SURPRISE" and overtake them as a thief in the night are children "of the night" and children "of the darkness"

If you don't want to take Paul's word for it... what did Jesus have to say about it?

Matthew 24: 32-33
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So the LORD gives a preview of the events that will unfold before the day he returns to collect his elect and clearly is NOT saying this "Could happen at any moment" or "It has to be a Total SURPRISE" John Nelson Darby doctrine.

On the contrary he is saying that "WHEN" you ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
The LORD makes it clear that only the Father knows the day and the hour... However he says that we will know when the rapture is near, Even at the doors. anyone that reads that and says that it has to be pre-trib because it has to be a total surprise is just regurgitating doctrines of men and not the teachings of the LORD.


So the main question is...
1) Are folks that believe in the Pre-Trib doctrine (Darbyites and the like) the "children of the night/darkness"?

If your answer is no, then why are you so wrapped up in this "Must be a Total SURPRISE, thief in the night" thing

Personally I think the Bride of Christ are the Children of the light/day and although they will not know the day or the hour we will know when it is near and even at the door as Christ taught in Matthew 24:33 (Post-Trib Pre-Wrath)

[Good Cheer]

To which I would want to restate or to ask of many, is this is the fig tree generation?
Is He coming to receive us after the son of perdition is revealed?
Are you ready for that?
The bright spot may be that with our steadily decreasing longevity since the time of Noah perhaps we won't be faced with making the decisions.

[1hole]

Very interesting and telling that instead of reconciling your belief that the catching up/rapture has to be a total "SURPRISE" as opposed to Paul's teaching that for the saved "children of the light" it will not come upon them as a thief (NOT a total SURPRISE"),

You react far too indignitely to words never said. The Rapture will only be a "total SURPRISE" to unbelievers AND to believers who are poorly taught about end times.

You chose to throw shade on the accuracy of the Bible and state that there has been 3 major and many minor amendments.

"Shade accuracy of the Bible"? No, certainly not the way you mean it anyway. I'm saying as clearly as I can that most Bible versions are equal to or better than the KJV but the minor differences between our main line versions are too small for believers to make such a fuss about.

...(however you do not detail any of these major or minor amendments and how they relate to Paul's teaching regarding children of the light vs children of the darkness...

You're using snark instead of honesty; I don't do snark.

...my guess is because they have NO relevance or you have no idea and are just regurgitating someone else's thoughts)...

You're obviously hung up on Mr. Darby; you may need to get over that.

I've previously stated that I know who Darby was but I've no personal knowledge of his writing and MY "guess" is that you haven't read him either. If you haven't, perhaps it's YOU who is simply regurgitating other folk's negative thoughts on the man.

Furthermore you do not list which translation would rebuke the KJV of Paul's teaching.

"Rebuke" Paul? Goodness, that's your own projection, not mine. I think I did suggest some versions that are good - have you?

... I will re post the original and give you another shot at reconciling your total SURPRISE doctrine vs Paul's teaching on this matter.

I hope you understand how grateful I am for that permission.

Paul also wrote regarding the rapture (and I am quoting the inspired word of GOD almighty, not paraphrasing)

Oh, you're "quoting"? I wonder ... which of the ancient writer's inspired manuscripts are you quoting from? Or are you just paraphrasing the English KJV as if that version is exactly what came from the lips of God to Paul, et al?? (I wonder, have you ever checked on what sources other than the Roman Catholics' (Latin) Vulgate the KJV translators worked from?)


Finally, congratulations on your son. You can rightly be proud of a six year old boy in command of three languages, that's super. I have a smart six year old great grandson who knows a few Spanish words. But, to be honest, I've never met any six year old American kid who is truly fluent even in his native English, never mind English plus two other languages. That's amazing ... if it's true.

[Good Cheer]

I've come to understand that this is indeed the fig tree generation and that would make the arrival of the fake christ, the imposter, immanent as in the next few decades. Some who are alive today will go through that and have yet to prepare themselves. That should be our focus.

[Alabama358]

You react far too indignitely to words never said. The Rapture will only be a "total SURPRISE" to unbelievers AND to believers who are poorly taught about end times.



"Shade accuracy of the Bible"? No, certainly not the way you mean it anyway. I'm saying as clearly as I can that most Bible versions are equal to or better than the KJV but the minor differences between our main line versions are too small for believers to make such a fuss about.



You're using snark instead of honesty; I don't do snark.



You're obviously hung up on Mr. Darby; you may need to get over that.

I've previously stated that I know who Darby was but I've no personal knowledge of his writing and MY "guess" is that you haven't read him either. If you haven't, perhaps it's YOU who is simply regurgitating other folk's negative thoughts on the man.



"Rebuke" Paul? Goodness, that's your own projection, not mine. I think I did suggest some versions that are good - have you?



I hope you understand how grateful I am for that permission.



Oh, you're "quoting"? I wonder ... which of the ancient writer's inspired manuscripts are you quoting from? Or are you just paraphrasing the English KJV as if that version is exactly what came from the lips of God to Paul, et al?? (I wonder, have you ever checked on what sources other than the Roman Catholics' (Latin) Vulgate the KJV translators worked from?)


Finally, congratulations on your son. You can rightly be proud of a six year old boy in command of three languages, that's super. I have a smart six year old great grandson who knows a few Spanish words. But, to be honest, I've never met any six year old American kid who is truly fluent even in his native English, never mind English plus two other languages. That's amazing ... if it's true.

Since you didn't and will not clearly state your position on the "total surprise Rapture either for believers or poorly taught" (backed up by chapter and verse of any bible version) I will have to mark you down as one of the children of the darkness/night that Paul was teaching.
He taught this for a reason.

I say this not as an insult or to change your mind but as a personal understanding so that I know how to (or why not to) respond to you in the future.

I personally think you are right on many subjects but are just in the dark on this one.

[Alabama358]

Finally, congratulations on your son. You can rightly be proud of a six year old boy in command of three languages, that's super. I have a smart six year old great grandson who knows a few Spanish words. But, to be honest, I've never met any six year old American kid who is truly fluent even in his native English, never mind English plus two other languages. That's amazing ... if it's true.

Thanks,
He is a pretty special 6 year old young Lad. At age 5 he had completely memorized the periodic table and could state the proton makeup of all 118 elements
He also reads the KJV bible every night with his mommy and daddy before goes to bed
All Glory to his Father and not his daddy.

[Alabama358]

I've come to understand that this is indeed the fig tree generation and that would make the arrival of the fake christ, the imposter, immanent as in the next few decades. Some who are alive today will go through that and have yet to prepare themselves. That should be our focus.

Great Subject... you should start a new thread so that we can all do a deep dive

[.429&H110]

At church today we learned Revelation 3.

I have as much Revelation as I need.

Heard some scoffing at Koine... no I do not speak Greek, never will, but I can learn to read it with a vocabulary of a few thousand words. Meanwhile I am learning Spanish by immersion with no intention of ever reading Spanish.
Our language limits us.

Over at 1st Corinthians 13:1 "...tinkling cymbal."

What Paul wrote in the Interlinear is "...alalala".
alalala is the Greek war cry, and also a Greek personification of minor war god.
Books have been written about Paul's personifications.

That is how Paul got their attention.
No, the meaning does not change.

Doulos does indeed change meaning, for us, but not to Paul.
Are you a slave of God, or a servant?

[1hole]

Since you didn't and will not clearly state your position on the "total surprise Rapture either for believers or poorly taught"

Yes, I have. You just don't understand it.

(backed up by chapter and verse of any bible version) I will have to mark you down as one of the children of the darkness/night that Paul was teaching. He taught this for a reason.

But you haven't given us a single word about what you believe Paul's point was. ???

I say this not as an insult or to change your mind ...

Trust me, I'll never take anything you say as an insult no matter how hard you may try.

... but as a personal understanding so that I know how to (or why not to) respond to you in the future.

Well, so far you've only said how wrong I am about Paul's writing but without anything but ad hominem snippets in support of your own claim. I can't help you with that but I can help you deal with me; just put me on your ignore list! That may break my heart at first but I'm tuff and, with God's help, I'm sure I'll eventually get over it!

I personally think you are right on many subjects ...

That's quite nice of you to say but you're sorta new here and I really don't think you know diddly about what I believe so it rings hollow.

... you are just in the dark on this one.

I agree that one of us is "just in the dark on this one."

Thing is, Paul's letters or my web posts, reading comprehension matters; maybe your son could help? Because, no offense intended, I personally believe you need to reread a lot of Paul's letters to better grasp the totality of what he penned about - at least - the Rapture.

Oh, about starting new threads, we don't do that by consensus . Anyone, including you, is welcome to start a new thread at anytime.

Enough.

[Alabama358]

Yes, I have. You just don't understand it.



But you haven't given us a single word about what you believe Paul's point was. ???



Trust me, I'll never take anything you say as an insult no matter how hard you may try.



Well, so far you've only said how wrong I am about Paul's writing but without anything but ad hominem snippets in support of your own claim. I can't help you with that but I can help you deal with me; just put me on your ignore list! That may break my heart at first but I'm tuff and, with God's help, I'm sure I'll eventually get over it!



That's quite nice of you to say but you're sorta new here and I really don't think you know diddly about what I believe so it rings hollow.



I agree that one of us is "just in the dark on this one."

Thing is, Paul's letters or my web posts, reading comprehension matters; maybe your son could help? Because, no offense intended, I personally believe you need to reread a lot of Paul's letters to better grasp the totality of what he penned about - at least - the Rapture.

Oh, about starting new threads, we don't do that by consensus . Anyone, including you, is welcome to start a new thread at anytime.

Enough.

Yup...Confirmed child of the dark

Actually, You kind of sound like a butthurt liberal that does not have the facts to work with so you just make a lot of distracting noise.

good day Sir

[1hole]

Yup...Confirmed child of the dark

Actually, You kind of sound like a butthurt liberal that does not have the facts to work with so you just make a lot of distracting noise.

good day Sir

By the grace of God, all of my days are good.

As previously stated, you don't know me. Therefore, your rude judgement of me is based on total ignorance and doesn't matter.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Oh my, this thread has turned dark.
I will pray to be raptured out of this thread.

[.429&H110]

Sorry about all the thread hijack
My pressing problem is how to visit the care homes.
It's a long walk.
Doctors tell us to come back next week, cancel without calling.
Nobody answers any phone, anymore.
You cannot call into the Banner South hospital building,
if you did, they won't answer or return calls.

My question is:
What does the new evangelism look like?
The sheep believe in Heaven, cancel all else.
Tell them about Noah, they laugh.
Tell them about Jesus, they walk away.
Tell them about Eve coveting, they just stare.

I would like to see the Second Coming, I am content in the Promises.
Meanwhile there is a Great Commission to do.
"God said it, that settles it".

[Thundarstick]

Sorry about all the thread hijack
My pressing problem is how to visit the care homes.
It's a long walk.
Doctors tell us to come back next week, cancel without calling.
Nobody answers any phone, anymore.
You cannot call into the Banner South hospital building,
if you did, they won't answer or return calls.

My question is:
What does the new evangelism look like?
The sheep believe in Heaven, cancel all else.
Tell them about Noah, they laugh.
Tell them about Jesus, they walk away.
Tell them about Eve coveting, they just stare.

I would like to see the Second Coming, I am content in the Promises.
Meanwhile there is a Great Commission to do.
"God said it, that settles it".

We should all be concerned that we may LEAD more people to the savior, than we will DIRECT to the savior.