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Thread: When Did This Idea of a Rapture Come From?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsonian09 View Post
    Those who survive tribulation, and those resurrected have to get past this to gain eternal life with God. And even then, they could lose it at some point after. As even Satan was once a perfect angel. Even an immortal spirit creature can lose their way from God and lose their life.
    Within man's valid interest, there are two kinds of spiritual beings; the lost and those cleansed by the Holy Spirit and forever sealed in the Church. They - we - are "once saved, always saved" or, as I prefer to say it, "If we are born again we are new creatures in Christ so we are born again forever". Meaning that no born again child of God will ever be un-born again and cast out of God's family.

    The Church, the Bride of Christ - they being the believers from Pentecost to the Rapture - is a different group from other believers. Only the blood bought Church has been cleaned (spiritually baptised) and eternally indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    Those souls who will come to faith in Jesus during the Tribulation/Mil. Kingdom don't appear to be so indwelt and sealed so they probably are the ones who can lose their salvation if they do not stand strong to their end.

    Satan and his demons have no part in God's plan for His followers so no spiritual analogy for them can properly apply to us.

    Roman Catholics have long been taught that a Christian's salvation can be lost if he doesn't do enough good works but if that's true then what in the world was any lost soul truly saved from by the blood of Christ? That doesn't compute in my mind but, sadly, a lot of bad Catholic doctrine such as that was brought along in the Reformation so some groups still wrongly teach the same thing.

    That one error deprives everyone who believes it from possessing the blessed peace of Christ which passes understanding. The Lord's own people should never live in fear of not making the grade! (See John 14:27-31, Eph 2:8-14).

    My bed calls ....
    Last edited by 1hole; 05-12-2022 at 03:51 PM.

  2. #82
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    John, you make issue about resurrected people as if they will still be perishable "flesh and blood" as they were before their death; that's not true.

    When this corruptible (mortal) tent dies it's gone. At the moment of resurrection our bodies will be as Jesus' body, meaning incorruptible and therefore immortal (1 Cor 15:53). Our resurrected bodies will have no more hazard from being in the direct presence of God than Jesus' resurrected body. (1 John 3:2,3). Once we are raised there will be no more dying for any reason! (Rev 21:4-6)

    We don't/can't know if Jesus' resurrected body is flesh and blood as we know it but it's surely physical and we will be like Him soooo?

    Heaven will be on a remade earth. We, being physical, aren't going to sit around on clouds playing harps while singing forever. I know that because heaven will be perfect and any place where I start singing would be less than perfect! (But I listen to singing real good. )

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsonian09 View Post
    Please explain further what you mean:

    “ When the Lord returns and stops the Tribulation, the saved mortals who died in the Tribulation will be resurrected with immortal bodies, ready to enter heaven and stand in the presence of god.”
    Any believer's body that God raises from the grave OR converts while alive will be raised in perfection, i.e., they will be immortal at that moment.

    Many denominations teach that the saved of all ages are the Bride of Christ (a.k.a., the "called out" people of the true church) and all of them are usually expected to be raised at the same time ... but that's not true. The first (small) wave of believer's resurrections was with Jesus. The second (next) wave will occur at the rapture. A third wave of raised dead will come at the end of the Great Tribulation. The fourth and final wave of believers will arise at the end of the millennial Kingdom.

    There will only be one resurrection for the lost and that one will come just before the Great White Throne judgments.

    The "Church" are those of the blood bought Bride of Christ. The Bride is limited to the spiritually cleansed and Holy Spirit indwelt and spiritually sealed people who come to Jesus between his physical death and the Rapture[/U]. (Just getting that one definition right dissolves a lot of end times puzzles!)

    It is the Church, meaning the specially "called out" ones, that will suddenly be "caught up" - a.k.a., "raptured" - at the trumpet's call to the present heaven for seven years (at least) for the wedding feast of Christ and his bride. After that, Jesus will return on a white horse, along with his bride (us) and a host of angels. Jesus will immediately stop the tribulation wars and disasters, he will slay the surviving gentile and Jewish non-believers with his sword and start the millennial kingdom with the survivors ... a kingdom which will be much different than what most gentiles ever thought of (but that's a topic for another day!)

    The surviving Tribulation people will be sifted; they and the believing dead of the Tribulation will be raised and we will all work together to set up and manage the Lords' Millennial Kingdom on earth. THAT "kingdom" will be much different than most people seem to realise and it will be a time of great peace and long life but it will not be the eternal "heaven on earth".

    After the Millennial Kingdom passes, all believers who died during the 1,000 years AND the lost dead of all ages will finally be resurrected. Angels will separate the sheep vs. goats, the wheat vs. chaff, the good fish vs. stinky fish, etc., (Mat 24:29-31) and the Great White Throne court will be opened for justly sentencing the lost for all the hurtful things they did in the flesh (Rev 20:12). And I'm guessing that God's cleaning of earth by fire and its final sinless resurrection will be going on at the same time.

    My understanding of the idea of a rapture occurring, is that Jesus is supposed to save people before the tribulation occurs.
    Sorta. If by "saved", you mean the Bride (Church) of Christ is raptured and taken away from the earthly horrors of the coming Tribulation, that's true.

    When in fact, the faithful are meant to survive through it on the earth.
    IF you're equating all of those who came to faith between the crucifiction and rapture with those believers converting during the Tribulation as the same, they are not the same. Born again believers in Jesus' Christ and New Covenant as the blood bought Bride of Christ - well, they are NOT the same as believers in other dispensations.

    Once a new covenant salvation is gained and a believer is born again as a new creature in Christ he cannot be lost again; "greater is He that's within than he who is outside" (1 John 4:4). I ask you, "If it's possible for a born-again man of faith to lose his eternal salvation what in the world would he actually have ever been saved from?" (And, if he were indeed lost again, would it be possible for him to be reborn again?)

    Truth is, when a new baby, physical or spiritual, is born he cannot be unborn again. And, if he were to be unborn again, he surely couldn't be reborn again, could he? Naw, when you look at it hard, that whole idea really doesn't compute!

    The book of Revelation only mentions the church/Bride of Christ in the first four chapters and then not again until after the rapture of the Bride AND the seven years of heavenly marriage AND the wedding supper in Jesus' Father's house. Only after the Tribulation AND the Millennial Kingdom accounts are completed (timeline in Rev. chapter 19) is the church or bride mentioned again; I believe that's significant!

    BUT, those who come to faith in Jesus before the Church Age closes, meaning after the Lord's ascension and before the rapture, the unique age of salvation by faith alone through Jesus alone are granted the gift of unearned, undeserved love/grace spiritual security as it's offered to us by Jesus' blood sacrifice in his New Covenant (Mat 26:28, Lk 22:20).

    There's no Biblical suggestion that any other peoples are born-again and therefore special Holy Spirit indwelt believers. I absolutely believe "once saved, always saved" is true but I also believe it only applies to believers coming to faith between the cross and the rapture.

    That means those who "believe" after the rapture but then take on the "666" mark in the Tribulation to save their life for a moment longer will forfeit any spiritual salvation they might have obtained - and THAT'S quite clear! (Rev 14:9)

    The Lake of Fire judgement will be a legal sentencing of rejecting individuals. But, unlike the seven years of Tribulation, the lake of fire is not the same as God's wholesale wrath of Great Tribulations that will be visited on the whole surface of earth.

    The Holy Spirit is now restraining Satan's great destructive power over the earth. The H.S. is not going to withdraw his hand and abandon us, the Bride of Christ, to suffer the coming wrath of God on earth. Instead, God will take Jesus' Bride out of this place when the time is right because the events of the Tribulation of God's blanket wrath to be visited on those who reject his Son is not for us. Christians of this age are not going to face the tribulation wrath of God.

    Also that statement conflicts with the fact that blood and flesh (physical bodies) can not enter heaven. Unless by “Immortal bodies” you mean to say the person has died in order to assume a spirit-angel like form to serve in heaven.
    I said nothing about flesh and blood bodies surviving in the presence of God the Father but Isaiah did it and he survived so... maybe? (Isaiah 6:1). In fact, I don't say anything about spiritual bodies and don't think anyone else needs to; Paul does it very well.

    We're told that the transition from one body form to the other, mortal to immortal, changes people in the twinkling of an eye and no one will be resurrected without that change. Thus, there is no need for men to die for that change to happen!

    Paul describes the instant change and vast difference between our flesh/mortal bodies and our spiritual/immortal bodies quite well. And I'll note there will be no flimsy "ghost" stage in it either. (1 Cor 15:35-58)
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Johnson, I haven't been ignoring your two week old post. You have raised a lot of points. I've read it maybe ten times trying to figure how to best respond and I still don't have it all together.

    Fact is, I'm not much of a writer but I do love Bible study; it's easy for me to get so "wordy" that most people in a quip-happy world won't even read it! That's why I pick a few quoted points to address and try to quickly focus on the aspects I see as the most significant.

    This isn't a perfect answer to your excellent list of questions, and it's by no means comprehensive, but it is my best effort to answer you with scripture (and, okay, a few of my noted opinions) while trying to be reasonably clear and brief.

    Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus! (Rev 22:20)
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Bottom line, a lot of people strongly suggest end times study really isn't important enough for Christians to bother with. But God inspired Paul to write Timothy and us that all of scripture is important enough to study (2 Tim 3:16) and that's enough to cause me to disagree with the disagreers.

    Fact is, there's just ONE Bible book that twice speaks of special blessings for those who choose to study it. (Rev. 1:3 and 22:17-19)

    Bottom line, the Bible study of end times is supposed to comfort and encourage Christians, not scare us out of our gourds. Prophecy is only scary if we don't study it enough and therefore read it wrongly! Scripture tells us that God's chosen people, the Bride of Christ/Church, will be raptured away shortly before the Great Tribulation's thick Brown Stuff Hits The Fan. (Peanut butter of course.)

    Reading today's signs of the coming rapture and following Tribulation says it's probably not very far away but scripture also tells us that when it does come Christians of this age will have nothing to worry about (Mat 16:1-4). I'm sorry about the others tho; they do need to be scared!

  4. #84
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    I like the way a teacher once said it, to pinch yourself; if it hurts Jesus hasn't returned and the one you're looking at is the pretender. That was for the pretrib rapture crowd who are expecting Jesus to come first.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    I like the way a teacher once said it, to pinch yourself; if it hurts Jesus hasn't returned and the one you're looking at is the pretender. That was for the pretrib rapture crowd who are expecting Jesus to come first.
    Oh?

    And your scripture support for a post Trib rapture is .... ?

  6. #86
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Rapture is a song by Blondie, not in scripture.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    Rapture is a song by Blondie, not in scripture.
    Sir, I must concur!

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    Sir, I must concur!
    Doesn't matter if you concur now, you'll both change your minds when it comes!

  9. #89
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Or shall it be that when a beautiful supernatural being appears claiming to be Christ, you will be given strong delusion and believe a lie? I'm not closed minded on all this because not only is scripture alive and expanding in the mind of any one person, but we are in the times of Him sending dreams and visions which are also of God. It's just that what He has already said doesn't agree with you and I have to decide who to follow.

  10. #90
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    "...bother to study..."?
    When you are preaching to the choir, you can teach Revelation on a Wednesday night.

    Apologetics has to start with Genesis, but you are teaching the ending first.
    When we teach math, we don't start with Trigonometry.
    The acolytes of Scientism deny any miracles, deny miraculous.
    They are stuck with cause and effect, no soul, dead is dead.

    We have to teach the miraculous.
    Christmas is about a miracle.
    Most people believe in Christmas, or did until Disney bought it.
    Easter is the basis of our Faith, a miracle.
    Noah in his boat, the Lord shut the door.
    The Book shows God above cause and effect.
    Prayer is about us unhappy with cause and effect, so we ask of God.
    And He surely answers.

    If we are going to save America we need a new evangelism.
    If a person doesn't believe in God's Promises
    or hasn't even heard of any, then Revelation is not the place to start.

    Missionary told me China has more Christians than members of their communist party, so the party's worried.

    2 Timothy 2
    The Lord's Approved Workman

    14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    Or shall it be that when a beautiful supernatural being appears claiming to be Christ, you will be given strong delusion and believe a lie?
    Cheer, the Rapture isn't a critical doctrine but it is Biblical and that alone makes it important.

    You just don't get it so your presumed timeline and perception of events is scrambled.

    Truth is, the pretrib Rapture of the Church will be a sudden event, it will come with no warning. Understood correctly, the Rapture is comforting, not fearful (1 Thess 4:18).

    The "strong delusion" passage you mention is and will be a warning for those who are left behind - AFTER the Church is "caught up". The Rapture will see no Christian left behind to go through the "Wrath of God" Tribulation, not even you.

    I'm not closed minded on all this because not only is scripture alive and expanding in the mind of any one person, but we are in the times of Him sending dreams and visions which are also of God. It's just that what He has already said ....
    You're not "close minded"? Well, I wonder if you've yet read a single one of the Bible passages I've posted? (I haven't read any of your supports because you've not given us any!)

    "He has already said" that believers - his children - are not subject to his wrath. I take that to certainly include the coming wrath of His seven years of Tribulation. (I'm sure you know it's there but you ignore 1 Thess 5:9 ... I don't!)

    So, as usual in your stout disagreements, you cite no supporting scripture for your fuzzy position, you just wave your hands in the air and tell the world about your specious "dreams". I believe you will need more than just telling people what you "think" to change many minds! ???
    --------------------------------------

    A postscript to those who would like to quickly read the noted scriptures: Just type what you want to read in the search line of your computer and hit ENTER!
    Last edited by 1hole; 05-27-2022 at 11:12 AM.

  12. #92
    Boolit Master
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    It was DL Moody that taught to write out Scripture
    because he noticed that few people will ever open a Bible.

  13. #93
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Cheer, the Rapture isn't a critical doctrine but it is Biblical and that alone makes it important.

    You just don't get it so your presumed timeline and perception of events is scrambled.

    Truth is, the pretrib Rapture of the Church will be a sudden event, it will come with no warning. Understood correctly, the Rapture is comforting, not fearful (1 Thess 4:18).

    The "strong delusion" passage you mention is and will be a warning for those who are left behind - AFTER the Church is "caught up". The Rapture will see no Christian left behind to go through the "Wrath of God" Tribulation, not even you.



    You're not "close minded"? Well, I wonder if you've yet read a single one of the Bible passages I've posted? (I haven't read any of your supports because you've not given us any!)

    "He has already said" that believers - his children - are not subject to his wrath. I take that to certainly include the coming wrath of His seven years of Tribulation. (I'm sure you know it's there but you ignore 1 Thess 5:9 ... I don't!)

    So, as usual in your stout disagreements, you cite no supporting scripture for your fuzzy position, you just wave your hands in the air and tell the world about your specious "dreams". I believe you will need more than just telling people what you "think" to change many minds! ???
    --------------------------------------

    A postscript to those who would like to quickly read the noted scriptures: Just type what you want to read in the search line of your computer and hit ENTER!

    Others on this forum have already pointed out some of your obvious errors and you have ignored their kind words of correction.
    Yet you persist.

  14. #94
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    Hi 1hole,

    I’ve been away for a week or two and glanced over your and others follow up questions and arguments.

    The reason I believe you yourself admit that you can’t find an answer to counter my points in scripture is because the idea of a rapture for the general populace of a tribulation period earth is largely incorrect.

    If you wish to discuss deeper into the topic feel free to PM me. Because the studied answers to those questions go beyond the scope of the main question posed here being:

    “when did this idea of rapture appear?”

    Yes some humans will go to heaven and serve with Jesus. But it’s not a whole church full. And most people wouldn’t even want to be part of the bride of Christ. And even the best believers will still have to endure through the tribulation and the following millennial kingdom. If you want to study this topic I suggest you start in genesis and meditate on Gods original design for all his creation on earth. And look for what you have been taught that conflicts with his original design. No one can build a house in sand. Start your study at the foundation. And build up from that.


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  15. #95
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    Ah well, ... I don't beat my head against walls very often and I've tried long enough.

    I'll look for all of you after the Rapture and we'll talk of it then.

  16. #96
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    On a side note. God is love. A loving god will not abandon those earnestly seeking to find him, his truth and to do his will. Regardless of technical differences. I’m not saying all roads lead to God. I’m saying he can read our hearts and he knows who is longing for him. And he will come knocking on your door one day to lead the way. Not burn you in hell if you believe the proper day of rest is Saturday instead of Sunday, or whatever arbitrary difference you subscribe too.

    If you honestly doing your best, seeking to find him. He’s going to take note and teach you his will. As long as you don’t turn him away when he shows up I’m sure he will welcome us all with open arms


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  17. #97
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    Check out Rev. Clarence Larkin's book "The Book of Revelation" copyright 1919; he explains the Rapture very well.

    Me I'm just like the Nipper the RCA Victor dog " Waiting to hear my masters voice that would the shout"

  18. #98
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    If the Rapture doctrine is true, what happens to children born during the tribulation? Are they never given the chance to be equal with those raptured?
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    If the Rapture doctrine is true, what happens to children born during the tribulation? Are they never given the chance to be equal with those raptured?
    that's a great question.
    Let me add a couple questions that are related.
    1 Thessalonians 4:17 says the following, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    "we" is defined earlier in verse 14, "we believe that Jesus died and rose again"

    Can "we" believers, chose not to be raptured? (you know, those of us that believe in Jesus, but don't believe in Pre-trib rapture.)
    ...Right after this Pre-trib rapture, will there be any believers left behind?
    if not, what is the tribulation all about? if there are no believers to witness to those left behind.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by MT Gianni View Post
    If the Rapture doctrine is true, what happens to children born during the tribulation? Are they never given the chance to be equal with those raptured?
    Specious question but meaningless. I mean, what has always been true for dying children? God measures the heart, not man's check lists of do/don't do works. That means children and feeble minded adults who don't know right from wrong appear to get a "free pass" into God's heaven.

    Spiritually cognizant people born before and after the Church Age, i.e., the John 3:16 Age of Salvation by Faith alone in Lord Jesus alone between His resurrection and the sudden indwelling/sealing of the Holy Spirit at pentecost until the (pre-Trib) Rapture are the "born again Bride of Christ". That doesn't mean their future won't be as blessed as ours but it will be different in ways we now know nothing of.

    The only heavenly thing we can know for sure about God's little children of any era is that they will be well taken care of.
    Last edited by 1hole; 06-04-2022 at 03:03 PM.

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