Question on wads: straight vs taper

[Soundguy]

Howdy.

First..thanks so far to all that have been helping me.

I've been thru the Lyman #5 shotgun manual a few times now, end to end. Taking notes, etc.

I've played with some safe #4 shot, and am now making #4 and 00 buck and lee 1oz slugs.

Sticking to load data..and to Lee's slug "recommendations" of using hull/wad combinations..etc.

My loading so far has been win AA hulls and waa12 wads ( claybuster). I did trade for some Remington gun club hulls.

I also have picked up at the local range a couple hundred herters and federal top gun hulls.

My research is telling me that the Remington and win are taper hulls and the herders and federal are straight.

( I hope I got that right ).

Now.. The local sportsmans warehouse carries clay buster wads. I was also given quite a few bags of assorted claybuster wads when I got some of my gear a few weeks ago.

The following are all claybuster brand

Waa12
Waa12r
Waa12L
Wt12


12S3

Wtw12
Tgt12

Of those.. I am thinking the top group are taper.. And 12s3 is straight.

I don't know about the bottom 2.

I think I have 1 more bag so.ewhere. I'll post back with the number.

Can someone confirm or correct me?

Thanks.

I've been reading that if you use a taper wad in a straight hull nothing bad happens but you can you lose a few flakes of powder and it's just not generally ideal.

So..please correct me on the wad / hull lists..what I think are straight/taper..etc.

Thanks.

[Soundguy]

And I have Red8 as well

[megasupermagnum]

The difference in tapered vs straight wads is the gas seal. A tapered wad like a Winchester AA has a gas seal about .700". A straight wad like a Federal 12S3 has a gas seal around .715". It isn't a huge difference. Plus most shot cups are around .730", so technically all plastic wads are tapered. The hull is the main difference. A Winchester tapered hull turns out to be an interference fit with their AA. A Federal hull with Federal 12S3 does not. The ID of a Federal hull is somewhere around .740".

The point being, don't worry about it. You won't see any data for a Federal wad in a Winchester hull. They simply will not seat in there. The other way around, .015" doesn't matter. Ball powders maybe, but flake powders don't care if the gap is .025" or .040". A couple flakes get by when you seat either wad, and then stay put.

[Soundguy]

Appreciate it. I've been reading till my head hurt.

And thanks, yes. I do see the difference in those hulls that have the tapered base, and also observed the very small difference in the 12s3 and a 12aa wad base.

I just wanted to make sure I was understanding correctly.

And yeah.. The data is calling out wads and hulls..
The only 'trouble' I've had so far was very minor difference is stacking heights with shot, buck and slugs.. But that's no issue now with the tips like using an overshot card to keep the crimp folding in..etc.

Again, many many thanks.

Lastly.. I have seen no data on herders shells... They "appear" to be just like federal. I cut one Down /open to see the base..etc... Looks like they would take the 12s3 wad too. ( but I have not used any.... No data... I ordered an alliant manual..will see what it has.

Many thanks, again.

[megasupermagnum]

I assume you mean Herters. It really depends on how old they are. Herter's used to be a store in Minnesota that sold all kinds of different things. They never actually produced ammo, it was always farmed out. Today, their name still exists, but the store is gone. It has been passed around for years, but I think Cabela's currently owns the name.

The best thing to do is cut them as you did, and compare them to a hull in the Lyman manual. You will find either a match, or something close enough. I actually seem to recall those Herters being plastic based, European hulls, probably a Cheddite.

As far as I know, the only hull Federal has made besides their own, is Estate. Estate is owned by Vista, and is just across the street from Federal. They are essentially the same company.

[Soundguy]

Yes, thanks.. My phone auto corrects too many words.

And yes.. I have been cutting hulls open to see if they have the tapered inside 'cup' or not. These heaters are new production... Look just like the federal top gun on the inside.

The diagrams in the Lyman manual front were/are very helpfull.

[centershot]

The point being, don't worry about it. You won't see any data for a Federal wad in a Winchester hull. They simply will not seat in there. The other way around, .015" doesn't matter. Ball powders maybe, but flake powders don't care if the gap is .025" or .040". A couple flakes get by when you seat either wad, and then stay put.

Never say never! My Lyman Manual shows data for AA hulls using Federal 12s0 and 12s3 wads. I use AA hulls and the 12s3 in my sabot loads and they work great!

[Soundguy]

I did see a couple AA hull 12s0/3 wads. My guess was that the high powder charge got the wad base up from the hardest part of the taper.

[bcp477]

Actually, it is very easy to "fix" tapered wads...to better fit straight wall hulls. I use nothing but Claybusters, myself ...but mostly Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls (which are both straight wall). The wads I am using are tapered, copies of the WAA wads. Since I have lots of them...and supplies of all things reloading are ridiculous right now...I decided to create a solution.

Wads are made of polypropelene...and very little heat is required to melt them. I simply apply a little heat to the gas seal RIM of the CB wad, then lightly press the wad onto a flat surface, thus forming a bit of a lip on rhe outside of the gas seal portion. It takes just a wee bit of practice to get it right (took me 3 or 4 tries). Voila. If you do it right, the gas seal will now fit snugly inside the hull. No more unburned powder. It works a treat.

I tested the "prototypes" to ensure that the fit inside my barrel(s) is not excessively tight, vs. unmodified wads. It ISN'T. So, any pressure difference between the un-modded and modded wads will be minimal. Takes all of about 2 seconds per wad. I can do 50 in about 5 or 6 minutes.

I'm sure some genius will claim this whole idea crazy. Fine...I couldn't care less. But, it DOES work beautifully...crazy or not.

[Soundguy]

Interesting. Heat gun or hot water?

I was guessing PE or PP construction.

[centershot]

Or.......

[bcp477]

Interesting. Heat gun or hot water?

I was guessing PE or PP construction.

I use a simple alcohol flame (Bunsen burner). But, anything that will provide the necessary heat will do. A candle would work perfectly. Trying to hold a heat gun for this seems cumbersome, at best, though. Hadn't thought of using hot water...

[Geezer in NH]

An 1" square of toilet paper or paper towel held across the hull then push the wad in. Done it for years.

[megasupermagnum]

Geeze. I'd give up plastic wads altogether before I'd spend that kind of time heat gunning, or cutting toilet paper.

[Soundguy]

Interesting ideas.

My heat gun has a stand...

Interesting ideas...

[bcp477]

Geeze. I'd give up plastic wads altogether before I'd spend that kind of time heat gunning, or cutting toilet paper.

Free country, as they say. I am not willing to have these hundreds of CB wads, that I have in hand, either go to waste...or waste $$ ordering different wads when I really don't need them.

But that's just me....

[megasupermagnum]

Never say never! My Lyman Manual shows data for AA hulls using Federal 12s0 and 12s3 wads. I use AA hulls and the 12s3 in my sabot loads and they work great!

I got curious, and I see you are correct. In the Lyman 5th is a number of loads for the 12S0 and 12S3 for both Remington and Winchester hulls. So I picked one out and tried it. I loaded the following load.

12ga Winchester AA 2 3/4"
Winchester 209
20.5 gr American Select
Federal 12S0
1 oz lead shot
fold crimp

When I loaded it, it seemed ok. I could definitely feel that wad going in snug. The first thing I noticed though was there is a slight bulge where the gas seal is. It did chamber ok, not loose, but dropped in. I then cut a window to check to make sure the seal was on the powder. It is seated all the way on the powder, but as you can see, the gas seal is cocked slightly. These wads were the Claybuster 2100-12, Federal 12S0 clone. Gas seal measures about .722", slightly out of round, as are most wads. The hulls are some old Winchester AA molded hulls, the hulls this data was made with.

I'm sure they will function ok. I'm sure they will go bang. They might even work really well. I'm not going to try them, but not because I think they are bad. I do not think they will out perform an AA wad. I also have to wonder if chambering issues may arise. They must have done well enough to get published, I'm just surprised they tested it at all.

[Soundguy]

Wow..tight!

Those few loads were the ones I saw too. Made me wonder. That's what prompted me to ask.

Thanks

[la5676]

Just because it’s a printed/tested recipe, does not mean it is an ideal load, only that it does work, been tested (they claim that anyway) and will go bang. Some of the Federal clone wads, specimally the DR 12S3 and it’s brothers, are almost tapered wads. In no way will they prevent powder migration around its base, but are certainly a bit snug in the base of a tapered hull.