Why no love/variety for ar-10

[megasupermagnum]

Each to there own but the A2 stocks and Service/match sights work very well for me and most others. If the standard stock doesn't work for someone the modular design allows for a swap out with a design that will. The AR platform is the most adaptable and flexible service rifle platform that I am aware of.

I went Distinguished with the M-14, I've built a lot of them and I love them. That doesn't change the fact that modularity and the flexibility of the AR platform has changed firearms as we know them. The chassis systems for the bolt guns have their origins from AR Match rifles accessories.

I've been shooting Service Rifle and Match rifle competition since the mid 80's and that is the first time I have every heard the claim that match rifle sights are not nice to use. What is not nice about them?

The AR's are fine. I'm just not that impressed with their stock design. I always hear about the modularity, but you really can't do that much with them, at least not without spending a bunch of money. The buffer tube makes the stocks what they are. There's no doubt the AR's are a step in the right direction. Their barrels and bolts are the best design I've seen yet, and there is no denying that with the gas system has produced the most consistently accurate semi-auto rifle to date. My criticisms of AR's are all on the back half. I'm not crazy about the safeties, charging handle, or stocks. That's my own personal opinion. There's nothing functionally wrong with them, I just don't like them. I prefer to charge with a solid handle on the side, and I like traditional wider stocks, with drop at the heel. AR stocks are like pogo sticks, and they just don't mesh great with any sights I've tried with them. I'm sure it's possible to do so, but again, the M14/M1A comes straight out of the box what I want.

I guess I should add that I like the AR15 a lot more, but even there, I still like the rugged simplicity of an AK. I just can't get excited about any AR10 that doesn't cost what a SCAR costs.

[Greg S]

Got into service rifles (M1 and M1A x 2)in the 80s, picked up a CETME for plinking in the early 90s and was happy for a time. In the Military, you shot the type of competitions that were available locally. AR10s started heating up but there were growing pains which subsided about 10 years ago. In the meantime, shot the 15 well, built my first 'picatini (sp) flat top 15just before G1 (a pic rail roll pinned to machined A1 upper and a 24" Krieger barrel and life was good. Picked up a 50B upper, interested in a 6.5G upper but life got too busy. The 15 started coming into its own in compitition.

The AR10 was just starting to come outta the woods then FN came to market with the SCAR and tried a friend's and it was all over. Sold all the old war horses, picked up a SCAR and waited on mags. First reloads was a starting load of horse crap and a Hornady 168 AMAX, published oal, no special attention and shot 2 sub moa 5 shot groups. At that moment, the Cetme and M series in the safe were living on borrowed time.

I backed the SCAR up with a 700 in 308 for the 4-800 plinking and quickly got fed up with the fodder cost/recoil and switched to a 700P in 223 which handles the 75 Amax and 80 SIE with ease using Lapua brass.

[M-Tecs]

The AR's are fine. I'm just not that impressed with their stock design. I always hear about the modularity, but you really can't do that much with them, at least not without spending a bunch of money. The buffer tube makes the stocks what they are. There's no doubt the AR's are a step in the right direction. Their barrels and bolts are the best design I've seen yet, and there is no denying that with the gas system has produced the most consistently accurate semi-auto rifle to date. My criticisms of AR's are all on the back half. I'm not crazy about the safeties, charging handle, or stocks. That's my own personal opinion. There's nothing functionally wrong with them, I just don't like them. I prefer to charge with a solid handle on the side, and I like traditional wider stocks, with drop at the heel. AR stocks are like pogo sticks, and they just don't mesh great with any sights I've tried with them. I'm sure it's possible to do so, but again, the M14/M1A comes straight out of the box what I want.

I guess I should add that I like the AR15 a lot more, but even there, I still like the rugged simplicity of an AK. I just can't get excited about any AR10 that doesn't cost what a SCAR costs.

There are a couple of nice adjustable stocks for the AR's here. These are geared to match rifle competitors but lots of other fully adjustable options out there.

https://whiteoakprecision.com/parts/

http://www.medeshafirearms.com/prod01.htm

If you want a side charging AR they are available in both the AR15 & AR10's

https://thegunzone.com/best-side-charging-ar15-uppers/

https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/blo...nd-ar-10s.html

One more advantage of the AR rifles is anyone with basic mechanical skills can do their own work.

I have yet to see any M1A that didn't need a trigger job, bedding and sight work to be fully capable. Very few people are capable of properly tuning M1A/M-14's anymore. Kind I like what you had to do to get your M1A useable.

When it comes to mounting optics the AR's are a far better design than the M-14's.

[Texas Gun]

I’d like to have an AR10 in 8 mm Mauser
But I’m gonna settle for 308

[megasupermagnum]

Yes no doubt the AR's are the optic kings. All of the 308's are big money, there's just no way around it. A good M14, or a tuned M1A is $2000, probably more now. By the time I got a good stock, good sights, and whatever else to make one of the AR10's into what I want, I'd be right there at $2000. The FAL is right up in the $2000 range too.

So you spend your money and have fun. Had Springfield not laid an egg, I wouldn't have had to do anything. I would have been just fine with 3 MOA accuracy.

[pmer]

The only gripe about match sights that I can think of is that in low light the small apertures don't let enough light through. Unless you have adjustable apertures for recreational or evening shooting. But I'd bet most that don't compete are putting scopes on ARs.

For the ARs people could try canting or twisting the rifle towards their eye. It will help keep your head perpendicular to your shoulders which makes for a more steady hold. It works with sights or scopes. It seems to help me with that awkwardness that some have mentioned. A little twist one way or other won't matter for goofing around and I had different zeros for each position when I used to compete anyways.

[megasupermagnum]

The only gripe about match sights that I can think of is that in low light the small apertures don't let enough light through. Unless you have adjustable apertures for recreational or evening shooting. But I'd bet most that don't compete are putting scopes on ARs.

For the ARs people could try canting or twisting the rifle towards their eye. It will help keep your head perpendicular to your shoulders which makes for a more steady hold. It works with sights or scopes. It seems to help me with that awkwardness that some have mentioned. A little twist one way or other won't matter for goofing around and I had different zeros for each position when I used to compete anyways.

That's just the dance you play with peep sights. A ring around the peep (I like the twilight apertures with the brass ring), and a bright colored front sight go a long way.

[M-Tecs]

Yes no doubt the AR's are the optic kings. All of the 308's are big money, there's just no way around it. A good M14, or a tuned M1A is $2000, probably more now. By the time I got a good stock, good sights, and whatever else to make one of the AR10's into what I want, I'd be right there at $2000. The FAL is right up in the $2000 range too.

So you spend your money and have fun. Had Springfield not laid an egg, I wouldn't have had to do anything. I would have been just fine with 3 MOA accuracy.

Two of my four AR10's are/were stock Palmetto State Armory rifles. In late 2018 or early 2019 you could purchase complete upper and lowers kits of almost nothing. I have about $560 dollars in each PSA AR10's. Both of them are sub MOA with M852 or M118LR for 5 shoot groups. Current prices for PSA AR 10's are starting $899. https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-10/ar-10-rifles.html

As stock guns I have shot the $560 PSA's against FN SCARS and accuracy was about equal yet the SCARs are currently running $3,000 to $4,500. I have since added 30 dollar stock extenders to each and two stage National Match triggers so they currently are not stock.

My other two AR10's are Armalite B series based Krieger barrel rifles that will hold 1/2 MOA 10 shot groups at 300 yards. I do all my own work and I have less than $1,200 in each including the Geissele Hi-Speed National Match two stage triggers AND Krieger barrels.

The people using match sights in competition are all using adjustable on both the front and rear.

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/prod...-3-mm/-Gehmann

https://freelandssports.com/product/...ture-iris-m18/

https://www.ssusa.org/content/match-...-best-for-you/

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/tube-gun/

[megasupermagnum]

As I said, AR's are the cheapest way to great accuracy. The question is why don't people love the AR10 as much? I personally do not put sub MOA accuracy as my first criteria in a semi-auto 308 rifle. That is ultimately my answer. The rest boils down to AR's are not my cup of tea.

[Fitz]

I have the 45 Raptor, 375 Raptor, and a 358 win. and I think my next will be the 338 Federal.

[M-Tecs]

I have the 45 Raptor, 375 Raptor, and a 358 win. and I think my next will be the 338 Federal.

When I purchased the two PSA's I was not expecting them to shoot as well as they do. My plan was to barrel the least accurate one to 6-284 for the ultimate coyote slayer. Problem is can't bring myself to pull a barrel that is shooting as well as they are.

My AR15 204 Ruger is close to an ultimate coyote slayer but the 6-284 would give me some additional yardage.

[country gent]

While a few AR10s went to the military for testing they were never issued in numbers to allow for it to be a service rifle in cmp dcm or nra matches. It has to be shot in match rifle class only. The Ar 15 can be set up to do both march rifle or service rifle with a second upper.

My AR10 is in 243 and 22-250 both fast twist barrels for the long vld bullets. a jewel trigger krieger barrels its a performer. I have a mount made for the rails that allows a scope or my warner rear to be used. The gas blocks are adjustable and extended some. Front sight mount is a MOs style clamp on and tompkin front globe on it. The cheek piece is a clamp on adjustable for cant and height, the butt plate is a clamp on adjustable for height cant and side to side.These are mounted of the buffer tube with no butt stock. My mag release is above the bolt release so I dont reach over for it.

The Ar15 are lighter less recoil and acurate most want them as for many years 223 5.56 ammo was very affordable. When the heavy vlds came out they performed well out to 600 yds. The light recoil made it easier in the rapids. AN AR with a flat top upper and match sights and anither upper with carry handle upper can shoot any match service or match rifle.

I have considered a 3 rd upper for the AR10 in 338 federal

[M-Tecs]

While a few AR10s went to the military for testing they were never issued in numbers to allow for it to be a service rifle in cmp dcm or nra matches. It has to be shot in match rifle class only. The Ar 15 can be set up to do both march rifle or service rifle with a second upper.

The military officially adopted the M-110 SASS in 2005. I did see a fair number of them in Afghanistan.

In 2009, the M110 rifle and commercial equivalents were added to the list of NFA-legal US service rifles under rule 3.1.6 of the NRA High Power Rifle Rules.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_S..._Sniper_System

https://www.knightarmco.com/12016/sh...tary/m110/m110

https://www.ammoland.com/2012/04/lmt...#axzz7PysMf6oo

The M110A1 version

https://www.19fortyfive.com/2021/07/...a-true-killer/

When it was adopted it was believed that it would dominate the Service Rifle and CMP matches. As stated above it had some growing pains and it did not dominate as expected. For across the cross the extra weight, recoil and balance point proved no advantage and possibly a disadvantage for 600 yard and under. At a 1,000 yards receiver flex was causing elevation issues. Clamp on stiffening rails were tried than the one piece monolithic upper/handguard.

I have not been involved in serious competition or building rifles for the last ten years so I have not followed this issue closely. With the inclusion of optics for service rifles and Long Range Service rifle class the rules have become somewhat confusing. The current Service rifles rules allow of optics and a many external mods. I am 6' 4" and the M-14 stock was short for me but I learned to adapt. I went Distinguished with the M-14. I would have loved the current AR option of an adjustable stock for E.I.C. matches. Standing was allows my greatest challenge. Having a properly fitting stock would have helped greatly.

https://thecmp.org/wp-content/upload...df?vers=011622

http://www.rulebooks.nra.org/documen...R/hpr-book.pdf

(d) U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm M-110 series–– In all courses of fire and
in all positions the standard 20-round box magazine or a reduced
capacity magazine of the same external dimensions will be attached.
The flash suppressor may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured
without a flash suppressor. Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches,
as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel. The front sling
must be attached to the end of the handguard, and must remain in the
6 o’clock position no more than 1/2 inch from its original location.
Metallic sights must be of the standard design found on the M-16
series of firearms. Rear sight windage and elevation adjustments may
be modified to allow finer adjustments. Plastic covers may be used
on the mounting rails on the handguard.
(e) A temporary, fitted, non-adjustable cheek piece may be added for use
on the service rifle when using optical sights

[white eagle]

I have built and still own guns in the AR platform
my AR 10 was a 6.5 Creedmoor and that gun could shoot
with 143 gr Hornady ELD-X it shot super tight groups beat some bolt guns
shot a deer with it but it is not a gun I would care to carry over hill and dale
they can be heavy sold the Ar 10 and have a bolt gun in same cal
I do still have a AR 15 and that is a joy as well it is 224 Valkyrie
shoots 85 gr Barnes bullets into very small groups
once you get used to shooting the Ar platform they are fun but for me it took a bit of getting used to
long live the bolt gun

[M-Tecs]

I have built and still own guns in the AR platform
my AR 10 was a 6.5 Creedmoor and that gun could shoot
with 143 gr Hornady ELD-X it shot super tight groups beat some bolt guns
shot a deer with it but it is not a gun I would care to carry over hill and dale
they can be heavy sold the Ar 10 and have a bolt gun in same cal
I do still have a AR 15 and that is a joy as well it is 224 Valkyrie
shoots 85 gr Barnes bullets into very small groups
once you get used to shooting the Ar platform they are fun but for me it took a bit of getting used to
long live the bolt gun

I have yet to meet anyone that has given the AR15 a fair shake that does not ultimately end up liking it. That's easy to understand since it's an erector set for adults. It is the most flexible rifle system currently available. The AR10 shares the same flexibility but the additional size and weight changes handling enough that lot's of people find it is a little more than they want. They thought they were getting a sports car like the AR15 but in reality they got a dump truck in the AR10. When you need a dump truck nothing else will do.

The AR10 excels at many applications. For an easy carrying hunting rifle not so much.

[Vettepilot]

Ok, so we know they are accurate, but some find them ugly, some find them uncomfortable, and some find them all three.

Now, back to my original question... What about higher power versions, that fit LR308 original receivers? Not high dollar boutique receivers.

Thanks,
Vettepilot

Edit to add:

I too at one time found them "butt ugly", and the very thought of learning their in's and out's, and actually building one, made me tired. But I surely am glad I gave them a chance. I've had loads of fun with them, built numerous examples, and love them just as much as my conventional Winchester Model 70 30.06, Savage bolt action 338 Lapua, etc., etc. My latest, just for grins, is an AR15 in 410 shotshell.

;~)

[popper]

Weight, cost, ammo cost and use. Of course a Garand or it's variants aren't any better. IIRC M14/Garand weigh as much and I don't want to carry a 15# rifle in the woods. Cost of a factory bolt 308 rifle is much less $. Just depends on what you want. AR10 is just as modular as AR 15, but high end manuf. specialize it.

[charlie b]

I used to hunt with my Garand. It isn't that heavy

[fastdadio]

I used to hunt with my Garand. It isn't that heavy

I've taken deer with both my M1a and my Garand. I will say though, The last time I spent the day still hunting with my M1a, I was glad to see the sun set....

[megasupermagnum]

I have yet to meet anyone that has given the AR15 a fair shake that does not ultimately end up liking it. That's easy to understand since it's an erector set for adults. It is the most flexible rifle system currently available. The AR10 shares the same flexibility but the additional size and weight changes handling enough that lot's of people find it is a little more than they want. They thought they were getting a sports car like the AR15 but in reality they got a dump truck in the AR10. When you need a dump truck nothing else will do.

The AR10 excels at many applications. For an easy carrying hunting rifle not so much.

I'll mostly agree with that. I don't love the AR15, but it really is hard to not like it.

The AR10 though, you have to admit it has had a rocky past. It is a lot better now than 10 years ago, that's for sure. I think you have a real point on the AR's erector set appeal, and I think that might be a big part of why the AR10 has yet to take hold as much as I think it will in the coming years.

As for the weight, I'd put this in the AR10 favor slightly. All of the 308's are heavier, dump truck, work horses. They also vary more on their variations than most rifles that I see. An M1A Loaded model must be up around 12-13 pounds, then top it with a scope and a 20 round magazine, and it's a beast. Compare that to a basic scout squad, and mine is about 8 1/2 pounds empty. The FN FAL is pretty close to those numbers, they made big versions, and small carbine versions, and a bunch in between. The FN SCAR 17 is listed as a trim 8 pounds. The AR10 is normally in that 8-10 pound range too... but there are lightweight versions out there. I see there is one from a company called ROAM, called the R-10 that says it is only 5 3/4 pounds.

The AR10 is definitely the way to go if 9 pounds is too much for you.