RCBS .44-250-K vs .44-250-KT

[Mal Paso]

The NOE Signature molds were newly discovered designs not produced during Elmer's lifetime. I had the 277g it was OK but I like the late 503 which may have come after Elmer passed, better.

It would be interesting to find out what Chamber Dimensions Elmer was working with. I suspect He was the reason 44 Mag chambers Got Longer. Only in my earlier Anaconda is the chamber short enough that the forward band of a late #503 is In the Throat. All the others, the forward band clears the throat by a good margin. I think it's Elmer's fault even though he was adamant about sizing .429".

[44MAG#1]

The NOE Signature molds were newly discovered designs not produced during Elmer's lifetime. I had the 277g it was OK but I like the late 503 which may have come after Elmer passed, better.

It would be interesting to find out what Chamber Dimensions Elmer was working with. I suspect He was the reason 44 Mag chambers Got Longer. Only in my earlier Anaconda is the chamber short enough that the forward band of a late #503 is In the Throat. All the others, the forward band clears the throat by a good margin. I think it's Elmer's fault even though he was adamant about sizing .429".

What worked for Keith worked for Keith. What works for us works for us.
I have said this before on here. I talked with him many times from the mid 1970's to just a few days before he had the stroke. He said the the bullet PICTURED in his Sixgun book where all the other cast bullets are pictured WAS CAST from an ORIGINAL mold from HIS DESIGN.
I sent him a 270 grain "Keith" that he liked and that Kent Lamont did the pressure testing on it for me.
Now whether anyone wants to believe me is another matter. He wrote up the bullet in his Gunnotes column and I have his letter about the bullet too.

[JAC43]

Those Prochko SWCs were the “steel masters” mentioned in the monstrous Keith bullet thread by LAH. They were most definitely designed during Keith’s last years since Prochko and a Salmon ID gunsmith were the ones involved in taking them to Keith for his approval. Pearce mentions this a bit in his 429421 article in HL#287. Walt Melander cut the original molds. NOE got involved due to the Keith bullet thread to facilitate the group buy. Regardless of whether they shoot better or not they have enough provenance to be signed off by the man himself I think.

[Mal Paso]

I was trying to make the point that the Signature molds were New Designs not versions of a previously released molds. Alloy won't cause a 27g weight gain unless you're adding Q metal.

[danmat]

I recomended the Keith NOE mold because the op was looking for Keith mold.
I have bought and read every Keith book long before Al Gore invented the internet, I know Keiths preferred alloy, and his 250 grain preferance.
I was poking the bear a little with the linotype suggestion, although Solomon had a paper starting in 1886 so I would guess linotype was around.
My NOE Keith drops around 275 with my alloy, my MP 503-265, MP 45-70 Keith around 400, I dont have an original H&G 503 to compare the weight
My point is the Keith bullet is not about weight, like saying a 30-06 spitzer is 150 grains not 180
44mag refers to 270 Keith after telling me a Keith 44 is 250 gr.
Mal Paso is the only person to mention the weight in the Long Keith thread, when he talks 44 bullets I listen and try to learn from his experience.
Larry mentioned overloading these heavier Keiths, I get it, but any caster reloader worth his salt would not drop a bullet without miking it for size and weighing it, if they did they probably are not aware of Keiths 2400 load anyway. When I open a new box of factory bullets first thing I do is grab a few and measure and weigh them so I know they are what the box says.
If someone wants a Keith of a certain weight Accurate can fix them up.

[44MAG#1]

danmat said. "44mag refers to 270 Keith after telling me a Keith 44 is 250 gr."

The reason it was 270 grains is it was designed BY ME and made by NEI and then copied by Wayne Gibbs of Hensley and Gibbs. Wayne got the H&G mold extremely close to the NEI going from dimensions of some NEI bullets I sent him.
The nose is LONGER that the Ideal/Lyman 250 Keith, the bands slightly longer.
I DID NOT MEAN that the 250's were 270 grains in weight.
As I said I still have the letter Keith sent me and he wrote of them in his Gun Notes column.
Oh well, another day in then saga of the elusive "Keith" bullet.
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=43-253K

[Onty]

I’d like to have one of the original moulds for that 429421, like every Keith fan I guess. My question is, who makes a copy of that bullet? I mean, an exact copy.

That one will be tough to find! From what I have read, the only real Keith's Lyman 429421 is a first batch, or some first batches. Since Lyman started fulling around with Keith's original design, he went to Hensley & Gibbs, and #503 was created. In that respect, I would forget "original" 429421, would rather look for #503, or exact copy of this design.

[44MAG#1]

As I said in post #26, which was probably ignored by most investigate Accurate Mold 43-253K. That is the closest to the original 429421 there is.

[alamogunr]

I'm still following this thread and about the only comment I have is that most available designs posted approximate or maybe closely follow Keith's original design. I wouldn't/don't have any problem with any of them. Since I have a few molds that approximate a Keith, I'm not in the market for any more.

Mold design like most things is not a static process. There are constant improvements(?) in just about everything. Each of us has to determine for ourselves what satisfies what we are looking for.

[Onty]

Just visited RCBS website, opened what they call .44-250-K https://www.rcbs.com/bullet-casting/...21/355313.html



Pardon my French...

Here is the illustration of the bullet with almost the same (no dot) bullet code 44-250-K from 2006 brochure https://www.acp-waffen.de/downloads/...2006%20(E).pdf :



Quite a difference, although, illustration is obviously sloppy photo-shop.

Also, here is something I snapped from handloads.com https://web.archive.org/web/20181220...handloads.com/ :



From https://web.archive.org/web/20181125...fault.asp?id=4

Is this something that was available (as a mold) from RCBS as 44-250-KT, or something similar?

The reason I was intrigued by this bullet was statement made by James Gates that conical nose bullets are more stable in transition form supersonic to subsonic velocity, thus more accurate on longer ranges, than LBT and other bullets with curved ogive. Could that small conical portion on bullet's nose be something to make noted bullet more stable than typical Keith with curved nose?

[Onty]

As I said in post #26, which was probably ignored by most investigate Accurate Mold 43-253K. That is the closest to the original 429421 there is.

Sorry, I might be wrong, but I am not convinced that "That is the closest to the original 429421 there is".



First, on 429421 front band ends as a sharp corner, this one has a slope. Also, 43-253K has crimp groove more like grease groove, instead of sharp 30+60 degrees groove. As for dimensions, I cannot comment. Maybe somebody who has original, early, 429421.

However, it might be very good bullet, those how have this mold could say more.

[44MAG#1]

onty sent you a PM

[44MAG#1]

Again Onty another PM

[dogdoc]

I remember that in an old issue of handloader, Brian Pearce has an original early ideal 421429 mould that he compared to more modern Keith designs. I will try to locate that issue. I think he got from the family of Keith’s Alaska friend or something to that effect. I use a modern Lyman square groove in my mastercaster .

[farmbif]

ive been reading these debates and "experts" giving their opinion of "the" Keith bullet for decades, what ive taken away with it all is which bullet actually works best in your gun.
an I know a little bit about it too, probably just enough to make me realize how much I dont know, searching and finding the different designs of the molds. 429421 with both the round and squared lube groove, copies of the 503 mold, ive never had the chance to get an original.
but again it all seems to come down to what shoots best in a particular gun with a particular load.

[dogdoc]

The Keith bullet is a general concept not some absolute but it is interesting too see the mould from 1920s that more or less started it all.

[Bazoo]

Keith revised his bullets a few times at the beginning. Mostly the size of the meplat best I recall.

The accurate 43-253k lacks the square front driving band shoulder. It looks very similar to the bullet gll showed though, with that exception. The RCBS 44-250-k I have is closer to Keith’s bullet as far as I can tell, even though it weighs a bit more.

I think that some of not all of the Keith clones would satisfy Elmer, provided they had sharp front shoulder, square grease grooves, full diameter front band, and equal length driving bands. Wether or not it has a huge crimp groove or just a large crimp groove doesn’t really matter, as long as it has a sloped crimp surface and not just a smaller grease groove to serve as a crimp groove.

In sixguns, Elmer said his bullet wasn’t the end all, just the best so far. And he was pretty close to right.

[Onty]

Here is photo of of Accurate Mold 43-253K (left) and old Lyman 429421 (right), made by 44MAG#1. I am uploading it with his permission. Thank you Sir!



For better resolution, see https://i.imgur.com/OCiwhhZ.jpg

[Bazoo]

Here is photo of of Accurate Mold 43-253K (left) and old Lyman 429421 (right), made by 44MAG#1. I am uploading it with his permission. Thank you Sir!



For better resolution, see https://i.imgur.com/OCiwhhZ.jpg

Thanks for posting. The accurate appears to have an angled front shoulder, just like the drawing. Keith specified a sharp shoulder on the front driving band to cut full sized holes in both paper and flesh. I can’t tell if the 429421 has a sharp shoulder for sure but I think so. The imagine is a bit fuzzy.

[Bazoo]

I would like to offer, if anyone would like a few examples for comparison, of the bullets I have access to, I am glad to offer.