.44-40 lessons learned

[greenjoytj]

There the how and why of working better.
2fg courser granulation makes for a slower build up of gas pressure which the long barrel of a rifle can take advantage of to get more velocity.

2fg fired in the short barrel of a revolver shows a lot more still burning (gas making) powder being ejected uselessly into the atmosphere.

3fg makes the revolver MV a little higher as more powder gets burned in the short barrel.

No matter the powder granulation size, the total gas volume produced will be the same for the same mass weight (not volume) of powder. There is just a faster gas creation (release) with the finer powder granulation.
The quicker burn time will spike chamber pressure higher with the finer powder granulation which makes more MV in the short barrel pistol.

[greenjoytj]

It's not embossing a circular mark. It's rounding the nose off. My bullet is John Kort's design, the 43-215c from accurate. It's rounding the corners of the meplat. It even does it with 35 grains, just not as much.
40 grains works fine in these Winchester cases. I just need a compression die. Funny thing is, I'm using a lee hand press to load these. Even at 40 grains, I was able to squeeze the handles together with one hand to seat the bullet. The handles on that thing actually have some give in them, but they didn't even flex. Maybe I just don't know my own strength, but I'm thinking a properly shaped seater would solve the issue.
As for the seater, my rcbs .45acp dies came with two different seating plugs. One is for round nose. The other is for flat nose. I don't know why they didn't do that for these dies. At the very least, you'd think they'd put a flat one in there, since .44-40 is a levergun cartridge, and 99.99% of people are going to be loading flat point bullets.

In any case, I'm going to use a compression die from now on.

As for the bullet seating, part of the problem is that I ran them through the sizing die first to straighten out a bunch of deformed necks. That RCBS die really squeezes the necks down, maybe too much. That is probably the last time these cases will see a sizing die unless they get deformed or hard to chamber. From now on, it's just seat and crimp.

You may not feel you are squeezing the press handles too hard but the press provides mechanical advantage through the length of the lever arms.
The fact the flat nose your bullet was made to flow like putty into a slightly rounded dome shows the stress place on the bullet alloy was enough to modify its shape.
I have no doubt you could compress down even more than 40 gr with the press advantage.
Even with solid flat nose bullet seater if your alloy is soft enough you could be expanding the width of the bullet ogive, the lead has to flow some where if it can’t be just easily push down.
A compression plug or powder quantity reduction will help.
I measure the length of my bullet shank and use a compression plug to squash the powder down the needed distance plus a couple thou to account for slight case length variations.
The tail of the verniers caliper can be pushed onto the compacted surface of the powder column to take more measurements to fine tune the bullet seating depth.

[Don McDowell]

Barely above no experience loading BP here; but I have a question. Why FFG? Is it more consistent than FFFG? Well, actually another question. Would a TL design hold enough Lube to use with black powder?

I use 3f Olde Eynsford in the wcf cartridges and the 45 colt, because that's what my rifles and wheel guns tell me they like the best. 2f works, but as in anything reloading the gun and the target will tell the tale. With the exception of when loading blackpowder the fouling is the other thing that matters. My 44 wcf's also really like a .40 caliber dry lubed felt wad from Muzzleloader Originals under the bullet.
The tumble lube bullets might hold enough quality lube to be alright in a handgun, but would likely create some nasty fouling and leading problems in a rifle. My go to lube is Bullshop NASA, or SPG.

[Chill Wills]

A shop made expander can be had in any size you want. No sales on here, so if interested, send me a PM for who to contact.

[HWooldridge]

I can't see how the difference between 1F, 2F or 3F will be very discernible in a cartridge application if you are essentially compressing the powder into a solid pellet on the loading press. I have experimented with compression amounts by using a couple of cases that had no primer, and dug out the powder afterwards. A portion of the charge may still be granulated but most of it comes out in chunks, and takes quite a bit of effort to remove all of the pack. Of course, I'm usually striving for around 5/16' of depth from a loosely filled case.

Muzzle loaders or cap and ball revolvers will see more of a change from grain size because the loads are less compressed.

[Savvy Jack]

I can't see how the difference between 1F, 2F or 3F will be very discernible in a cartridge application if you are essentially compressing the powder into a solid pellet on the loading press. I have experimented with compression amounts by using a couple of cases that had no primer, and dug out the powder afterwards. A portion of the charge may still be granulated but most of it comes out in chunks, and takes quite a bit of effort to remove all of the pack. Of course, I'm usually striving for around 5/16' of depth from a loosely filled case.

Muzzle loaders or cap and ball revolvers will see more of a change from grain size because the loads are less compressed.

That is because when the powder is compressed, Winchester compressed their powder between .17" to .21", only the powder closest to the mouth is compressed. The powder on down into the case and down at the primer are not compressed. Both John Kort and myself have dissected quite a few original cartridges to discover such applications. John described the powder as a "mixture" of FFg and FFFg of which he said was an original type of black "sporting" powder at one time.

I have pressure tested a few black powder cartridge loads and the results will surprise you. I know folks don't like clicking external links but I am not going to repost the data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=598633334

The difference between original factory loads and early hand loads was a bit different but Winchester claimed handloads with their swaged bullets or even unlubed cast bullets.... "For ordinary use, however, it is found that the cast bullets will answer".~ Winchester's 1875 catalog

The quality of black powder is important. Problem #1 is when 40gr by volume does not weigh 40gr. It's like trying to use regular car gas in NASCAR race cars and expecting racing performance. Folks substitute FFFG to make up for the power loss by lack of quality and reduction of grains used.

When using larger .429 to .430 cast bullets, the RCB "Cowboy" were designed for those larger diameter bullets.

John Kort's 43-215C with the large lube groove has proven itself as an accurate black powder bullet out to 300 meters when the handloader does his part.

Take an old 44-40 .427" expander plug and grind the tip flat and very slightly chamfer the edge, cut an old die body so the plug sticks way down below so you can see it.....now you have a powder compression die....mark it for your desired compression depth needed to finger seat the bullet. Between the bullet sitting firmly on top of the powder, neck retention is not needed much except to help control the burn rate along with the bullet crimp. For bullets that do not have a roll crimp, the Redding 44-40 profile crimp die is far superior than anything else.

I just added some 44-40 handloading pages to the 44-40 website.

Introduction - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...g-introduction
Bullet Selection - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...chamber-issues
Brass Cases and Chambering issues - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ng/brass-cases
Primer Issues - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...oading/primers
Die Set Selections - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ading/die-sets
Redding Profile Crimp Die Use - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...file-crimp-die
Other Issues - https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ed-case-issues

If you want to load the 44-40 to 44 Henry ballistics, then keep using modern load data. If you want true 44-40 original performance, use good quality black powder like Swiss or Olde Enysford. For smokeless powder loads, use slower burning rifle powders. Leave the faster burning pistol powders for revolver loads.

With the help of a lot of people, the site is continuing to shape up.


Thundermaker, as far as the side bulge when seating the bullet, get the Lyman "M" die for the 44-40 (.427-.428" bullets) and the 44 Magnum "M" plug (.429 to .430" bullets). You will thank yourself later. https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ading/die-sets

Read this from John Kort for black powder shooting: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...d-by-john-kort

And congratulations for entering the wild world of the extremely multi-faceted 44-40!!!!!

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/introduction

[indian joe]

FYI, the 43-215C Kort bullet design from Accurate has a big lube groove just for black powder - and it also works just fine with smokeless. The little bit of extra lube applied might make a difference in yield over thousands of bullets but the performance outweighs the loss.

Mate I was replying to post #8 which I did include to avoid confusion

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Savvy Jack;5385654]That is because when the powder is compressed, Winchester compressed their powder between .17" to .21", only the powder closest to the mouth is compressed. The powder on down into the case and down at the primer are not compressed. Both John Kort and myself have dissected quite a few original cartridges to discover such applications. John described the powder as a "mixture" of FFg and FFFg of which he said was an original type of black "sporting" powder at one time.

I have pressure tested a few black powder cartridge loads and the results will surprise you. I know folks don't like clicking external links but I am not going to repost the data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=598633334

Bryan have you figured out whats the reason for the jump in pressure (and velocity) with those old cases? (semi balloon head - the last few on the chart) would think it must be something to do with better (quicker) ignition due to the primer pocket protruding into the base of the charge - but that is no more than a guess. ?

absolutely agree with you on compression - different effect down the charge - and longer skinnier the case the more the difference, say a 38/55 - bottleneck cases moreso different again - my 45/75 shouts this out.

[Savvy Jack]

[QUOTE=indian joe;5385673]

That is because when the powder is compressed, Winchester compressed their powder between .17" to .21", only the powder closest to the mouth is compressed. The powder on down into the case and down at the primer are not compressed. Both John Kort and myself have dissected quite a few original cartridges to discover such applications. John described the powder as a "mixture" of FFg and FFFg of which he said was an original type of black "sporting" powder at one time.

I have pressure tested a few black powder cartridge loads and the results will surprise you. I know folks don't like clicking external links but I am not going to repost the data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=598633334

Bryan have you figured out whats the reason for the jump in pressure (and velocity) with those old cases? (semi balloon head - the last few on the chart) would think it must be something to do with better (quicker) ignition due to the primer pocket protruding into the base of the charge - but that is no more than a guess. ?

absolutely agree with you on compression - different effect down the charge - and longer skinnier the case the more the difference, say a 38/55 - bottleneck cases moreso different again - my 45/75 shouts this out.

I am thinking maybe it is from a better initial burn rate from the powder wrapping around the primer pocket. As the pockets got smaller, the pressures lowered and velocities decreased. That is solely based on my "paper trail".

[Thundermaker]

Got everything sorted now, thanks to Chill Willis. Load testing to follow.

[Chill Wills]

Got everything sorted now, thanks to Chill Willis. Load testing to follow.

A custom two diameter expander for the larger bullet plus a die body to put it in and a custom flat nose bullet seating stem for the flat nosed bullet addressed the issues.

I am glad it works now.

[Thundermaker]

I installed the new expander in the RCBS expander die. I'm using the old .425 expander plug in the blank die body as a compression die. The seating plug works like a charm.

I showed up to the cowboy match, and nobody else did. I decided that, since I had made the drive to the range, I would shoot the rifle.

Here are the results.

35grains of schuetzen 2F gave 1020 fps, give or take a few fps.

40 grains of the same gave 1080.

Schuetzen is known to be about the least powerful of the powder brands, and these results were about what I was expecting, considering Mr. Kort's tests. I may try some with 3F to see if that gains me anything, but I doubt it. Still, a 215gr bullet at 1080fps will take down most things in my neck of the woods.

Shooting was done at 50 yards. The first group was about 2.5". I don't think that's too bad, considering that I charged the cases from a handheld powder measure without weighing anything. I fired 75 rounds over the course of the day, mostly plinking. I fired a final 10-shot group just to see if there was any accuracy loss. That group is pictured below.



I did notice something strange. For the first few loadings, I had a little lube on the muzzle. By the time I fired that last group, the muzzle was dry. When I loaded the ammo, I loaded half of them the same day I lubed the bullets. Something came up, so I didn't get to load the other half until a few days later. The bullets sat in an open bowl. Is it possible that the lube dried out a bit in that time and became less effective? It might also have something to do with the way I lubed them. I just rubbed them with a stick of lube to fill the grooves. I have since procured tubing of a proper size to make a cutter, and the next batch of bullets will be properly pan-lubed.

I'm amazed at how well the brass seals the chamber, even at black powder pressures. There's no fouling anywhere in the gun except the bore, and you wouldn't know that the brass had been fired unless you looked inside it. I'm really glad I got the gun in .44-40 instead of 45colt.

[HWooldridge]

Good shooting, and 44 WCF brass seals the chamber much better than 45 Colt. Almost like it was designed for it…wink, wink.

[Savvy Jack]

I did notice something strange. For the first few loadings, I had a little lube on the muzzle. By the time I fired that last group, the muzzle was dry. When I loaded the ammo, I loaded half of them the same day I lubed the bullets. Something came up, so I didn't get to load the other half until a few days later. The bullets sat in an open bowl. Is it possible that the lube dried out a bit in that time and became less effective? It might also have something to do with the way I lubed them. I just rubbed them with a stick of lube to fill the grooves. I have since procured tubing of a proper size to make a cutter, and the next batch of bullets will be properly pan-lubed.

I'm amazed at how well the brass seals the chamber, even at black powder pressures. There's no fouling anywhere in the gun except the bore, and you wouldn't know that the brass had been fired unless you looked inside it. I'm really glad I got the gun in .44-40 instead of 45colt.

You are using the 215C right? If so, there should be plenty of lube to shoot at least 50 rounds without any loss of accuracy or build up of crud. More than likely the problem is the type lube...I forget the details you posted earlier...or your results are normal after shooting nearly 80 rounds.

Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.

[Thundermaker]

Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.

Yes, but I'm using a bullet that's .001" over groove, so there's no need for any obturation to seal the bore. It could just be inconsistencies in powder charges. As I said, I used a handheld measure and didn't weigh anything. Even that last group isn't bad, other than 2 fliers.

The lube is good, I think. When I went to clean it, a dry patch got most of the fouling, and it was all pretty greasy. followed that up with two wet patches. The second came out clean. The bore was shiny, and I couldn't see anything in the grooves. Finished up with ballistol.

[Thundermaker]

Little update.

I didn't resize the brass after the last firing. I just ran it through the expader to knock what was left of the crimp out. I am now loading 35grains Sheutzen 2f. I'm using the compression plug made from the old undersized expander. I was really surprised how solid that mass of powder gets. I set the compression die so that the thumb seated bullet stops on the powder with the crimp groove at the case mouth. I'm using the crimp function of the seater die to roll crimp.

[Thundermaker]

Update. Now that I've been shooting the gun for a while, I've gotten the lube worked out.

So far, the best 100 yard group I've gotten is about 5". I'm starting to wonder if the twist rate is the issue. The gun has a 1:36 twist. The highest velocity I can get with Scheutzen is 1080fps. Perhaps that simply isn't enough velocity to properly stabilize my 215gr bullet with the slow twist. I have acquired some Swiss. I'll have to test it next trip.

[Randy Bohannon]

Give that Swiss 3F a go ,groups will get better with a bit more velocity .

[indian joe]

I think I remember reading somewhere that the cases that took 40 grains of Black Powder were balloon head cases. That's why only around 37-38 grains works in modern cases. Can't remember where I read it so I might be wrong.

you can get 40 grains in if you use a proper compression die and stay with 200grain boolits.

[Thundermaker]

you can get 40 grains in if you use a proper compression die and stay with 200grain boolits.

I can actually get 40 grains under the 215gr bullet I'm using without difficulty.