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Thread: .44-40 lessons learned

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy
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    Glad I have the Uberti with 1:20 twist. Can't wait to do some workups. The Kort 215C should be here from Accurate any day now.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abert Rim View Post
    Glad I have the Uberti with 1:20 twist. Can't wait to do some workups. The Kort 215C should be here from Accurate any day now.
    That's the same bullet I'm using. That mold is great.

  3. #43
    Boolit Mold Tomokabear's Avatar
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    Does anyone know where I can find 44-40 brass either new or used?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomokabear View Post
    Does anyone know where I can find 44-40 brass either new or used?
    We do have a "Swapping & Selling" section here at Cast Boolits. There was some 44-40 brass for sale just the other day. You may want to look there, and or post a "WTB" ad rather than ask here.
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  5. #45
    Boolit Mold Tomokabear's Avatar
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    Thanks Rick,
    I will take a look there and see what is available. Although I have been lurking in the background for years I have not posted anything. That means I cannot use some of the features of this forum.
    Barry

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    ......Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.
    Won't hard lead bullets seal the bore at any pressure if they are bigger than groove diameter?

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Won't hard lead bullets seal the bore at any pressure if they are bigger than groove diameter?

    Tim
    Should, just like with smokeless loads.

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy DAVIDMAGNUM's Avatar
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    No they will not. No bore is perfect. The imperfections will let jets of hot gas blow by hard cast bullets shot at low pressure. This will cause leading. It isn't just size sealing the bore. The accelerating bullet resists forward movement and expands slightly causing it to press against the bore. If the bullet is too hard to expand (obturate) by the pressure applied to it's base then it will not seal the bore.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVIDMAGNUM View Post
    No they will not. No bore is perfect. The imperfections will let jets of hot gas blow by hard cast bullets shot at low pressure. This will cause leading. It isn't just size sealing the bore. The accelerating bullet resists forward movement and expands slightly causing it to press against the bore. If the bullet is too hard to expand (obturate) by the pressure applied to it's base then it will not seal the bore.
    Funny how I'm not getting any leading.

    Obturation happens at the moment of ignition. It is caused by the inertia of the bullet. Soft lead will collapse into itself before the expanding gasses overcome the bullet's inertia, causing the bullet to expand outwards. Once that bullet starts moving, obturation is over. So, by your logic, every gun would lead like crazy because some imperfection in the bore would negate the benefit of the obturation.

    Obturation was important in the old guns with factory ammunition because there was such a wide variance in bore dimensions, which ammunition manufacturers could not account for. It is still important in muzzle loaders because you're limited to bullets at bore (land) diameter, so you need the bullet to expand and grip the rifling.

    Many smokeless loads will not obturate even soft bullets because the acceleration is too slow. How do smokeless shooters get around this? They cast the bullet at .001" or more over groove diameter.

    If you force something into a hole that is larger than the diameter of the hole, it seals, just like corking a bottle.

  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy DAVIDMAGNUM's Avatar
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    Thundermaker. Nope.
    A cork in your analogy is an expanding spring continually pressing against the inside wall of what it seals. A bullet will not have that much pressure pushing against the walls of the bore as to hold back the 10,000psi (or more) expanding hot gas. There was an article on the LASC cast bullet sight, "IS YOUR BULLET SOFT ENOUGH?" . This article explained the subject much better than I can. This is also a rule of thumb, not a carved in stone absolute. Every firearm and load combination are a unique of their own. It has also been my experience with commercial "hard cast" bullets. This is how and why I became a bullet caster. Just one of my real life experiences is this. 44WCF (44-40) , 240Gr bullet, CCI#350 Primer, Starline brass and a slightly compressed load of Reloder 7. With hardball alloy severe leading, with wheel weight alloy not quite as severe leading, with 20-1 alloy zero leading. This is with two rifles and a revolver, and bullet fit was not the issue.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAVIDMAGNUM View Post
    and bullet fit was not the issue.
    Are you sure? You slugged the bores?

    We can go around in circles about that analogy, but you're ignoring all my other points.

    Either way, it has nothing to do with anything in this thread, as I'm not having any leading problems or ES problems that would suggest that the bullet isn't sealing.

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Hard bullet lubes are a worse culprit in bore leading than hard alloy. I overcoat commercial hard cast bullets with 45-45-10 over top of the hard lube and get no leading, even if a bit undersized. I never get any leading with beeswax-olive oil with any alloy.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Hard bullet lubes are a worse culprit in bore leading than hard alloy. I overcoat commercial hard cast bullets with 45-45-10 over top of the hard lube and get no leading, even if a bit undersized. I never get any leading with beeswax-olive oil with any alloy.
    Same here. I've a lot of .429 sized bullets through several different revolvers with .429 groove barrels and rifles with .430+ groove barrels. The bullets were my own cast with Javelina lube and never had any leading and excellent accuracy. Also shot a lot of commercial hard cast .429 bullets with hard wax lubes that I gave a light coat of LLA to. Never had any leading with those either.

    It's primarily the use of a poor lube that causes leading. I do the LLA treatment to all commercial hard cast bullets of various calibers in numerous cartridges and get no leading.

    Also with properly lubed bullets the bullet itself will not touch the bore but will ride on a layer of lube. What that means, for example, is a lubed .430 bullet shot through a .429 groove depth barrel will come out of the muzzle at more like .425 +/- diameter.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 03-27-2023 at 10:14 AM.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Also with properly lubed bullets the bullet itself will not touch the bore but will ride on a lay of lube. What that means, for example, is a lubed .430 bullet shot through a .429 groove depth barrel will come out of the muzzle at more like .425 +/- diameter.
    That's an interesting theory. I'll have to figure out a way to test that.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundermaker View Post
    That's an interesting theory. I'll have to figure out a way to test that.
    Not theory, it's been proven over and over again with tests conducted by members of this forum including myself. Simply shoot some lubed cast bullets into a medium that doesn't damage them and then measure them.
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  16. #56
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Hard bullets are subject to ablation caused by gas leaking around the bullet. They do not obturate, which is why they lead the bore UNLESS you use a soft lube which flows readily when exposed to the heat and pressure of powder gases, so that they coat the bore. Soft lubes induce boundary layer lubrication which prevents adhesion of vaporous lead ablation products to the bore surface. Lacking this condition bullet diameter is reduced and is measurable, exactly as Larry stated.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    You are using the 215C right? If so, there should be plenty of lube to shoot at least 50 rounds without any loss of accuracy or build up of crud. More than likely the problem is the type lube...I forget the details you posted earlier...or your results are normal after shooting nearly 80 rounds.

    Modern day black powder loads do not produce the pressures that original BP loads did. Still enough to seal the chamber but not enough to seal the bore with hard lead bullets.
    curious here ....are you saying the olde fashioned powder generated more pressure per grain ? OR this is just because we are not putting as much powder in the case ?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Not theory, it's been proven over and over again with tests conducted by members of this forum including myself. Simply shoot some lubed cast bullets into a medium that doesn't damage them and then measure them.
    this could develop into an interesting argument - think I might get some popcorn and watch.

    ps never been a fan of hard cast boolits - its a myth created by commercial casters so they could speed up their production .... softish alloy and good lube = best performance - in the gun and on game.

  19. #59
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    Determine groove. 40-1 lead mix of proper diameter. 45-55 olive oil-beeswax lube. Cereal box wad slug. Case near full of 3F Goex.
    Go out and shoot and enjoy that old BP slug slinger.
    40 years and about a ton of 40-1 or range scrap down range and still smiling.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    curious here ....are you saying the olde fashioned powder generated more pressure per grain ? OR this is just because we are not putting as much powder in the case ?
    I am putting the same amount of powder in the case as the old loads, but I'm getting about 300fps less velocity. However, my rifle has the same slow twist as the original. That's why I'm thinking that velocity might be an issue. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. People often forget that bullet stability is achieved by spinning a given bullet at a certain RPM, and RPM is a function of twist rate and velocity.

    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    this could develop into an interesting argument - think I might get some popcorn and watch.

    ps never been a fan of hard cast boolits - its a myth created by commercial casters so they could speed up their production .... softish alloy and good lube = best performance - in the gun and on game.
    If there is an argument over that subject, you can be sure it won't involve me.

    As far as "hard cast" bullets, does air-cooled COWW qualify as such? Looking at some brinell hardness charts, it's the same hardness as the 16:1 alloy that a lot of the BPCR shooters are using.
    Last edited by Thundermaker; 03-28-2023 at 05:26 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check