Bullet Expansion at "Leisurely" Velocities

[44MAG#1]

VIRGEL seems to have made you obsessive!

It is thought provoking. I have been provoking thoughts now since I heard of it.
What happened to STUBBYFEST HIT SIMULATOR. I thought it was awesome?

[M-Tecs]

I wouldn't define "anemic" (or "adequate" or "awesome" for that matter) strictly in terms of velocity. A better definition would involve both penetration and wound mass.

A hard-cast 220 grain wadcutter at 650 f/s from a CA Bulldog will easily satisfy the FBI penetration requirement and produce about the same wound mass as the vaunted .38 Special FBI Load. Not "awesome," but probably "adequate" and certainly not "anemic" despite its leisurely velocity.

Not my terms. "Anemic" is the term used by both Bristish soldiers using the 450 Adams and US Soldiers using the 38 Long Colt in actual combat. Granted they mostly were using round nose lead so wound mass may have been different than a WC but as a combat round the 450 Adams and the 38 Long Colt had a very short military history. The 38 Long Colt performance was so "anemic" it was replaced in theater by 1873 45 Colts and its failures in combat greatly influenced the development of 45 ACP and the 1911.

Probably "adequate" means is might also be inadequate so yes it might be lacking power so that fits the definition of anemic. I really don't care to play word games or for the matter I don't care what others carry. I do know I have zero interest in duplicating perform that per actual historical usage was deemed lacking.

[pettypace]

I wouldn't define "anemic" (or "adequate" or "awesome" for that matter) strictly in terms of velocity. A better definition would involve both penetration and wound mass.

A hard-cast 220 grain wadcutter at 650 f/s from a CA Bulldog will easily satisfy the FBI penetration requirement and produce about the same wound mass as the vaunted .38 Special FBI Load. Not "awesome," but probably "adequate" and certainly not "anemic" despite its leisurely velocity.

What I'm suggesting is a "paradigm shift" away from the current "velocity/energy" focus and toward a new "penetration/wound mass" focus.

Of course, the importance of penetration and wound mass over velocity and energy is not some new idea I just dreamed up. It was the takeaway from the Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904 and clearly stated in Special Agent Urey Patrick's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness :

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

Yet, the manufacturers of self-defense ammunition all report and advertise velocity and energy, all but ignoring the results of laboratory gel testing for penetration and permanent cavity wound mass.

I suppose it makes sense: if the aficianados here continue to emphasize velocity and energy over penetration and wound mass, we can't expect more from the manufacturers.

[44MAG#1]

What I'm suggesting is a "paradigm shift" away from the current "velocity/energy" focus and toward a new "penetration/wound mass" focus.

Of course, the importance of penetration and wound mass over velocity and energy is not some new idea I just dreamed up. It was the takeaway from the Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904 and clearly stated in Special Agent Urey Patrick's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness :

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

Yet, the manufacturers of self-defense ammunition all report and advertise velocity and energy, all but ignoring the results of laboratory gel testing for penetration and permanent cavity wound mass.

I suppose it makes sense: if the aficianados here continue to emphasize velocity and energy over penetration and wound mass, we can't expect more from the manufacturers.

Until I found VIRGEL I used to carry ammo such as two expanding bullets as the first two out of the gun with the rest FMJ Flat Points in my 45 Autos.
Mainly my Glock M30. Now I carry lately my M69 Smith with 247 gr bullets at a loafing 700 FPS.
The 44 Bullets while NOT A FULL wadcutter they have a Meplat of .380 inch. I know that is an "also ran" compared to a full wadcutter but hopefully I can hit a vital area. .050" is a crucial difference in the DWM or WTI.
One day I will get a full wadcutter mold of maybe 180 to 200 grains but at 70 years old I may not.

[pettypace]

Until I found VIRGEL I used to carry ammo such as two expanding bullets as the first two out of the gun with the rest FMJ Flat Points in my 45 Autos.
Mainly my Glock M30. Now I carry lately my M69 Smith with 247 gr bullets at a loafing 700 FPS.
The 44 Bullets while NOT A FULL wadcutter they have a Meplat of .380 inch. I know that is an "also ran" compared to a full wadcutter but hopefully I can hit a vital area. .050" is a crucial difference in the DWM or WTI.
One day I will get a full wadcutter mold of maybe 180 to 200 grains but at 70 years old I may not.

Mags,

I'm happy that you "found VIRGEL." You make it sound almost like a religious experience! But you may be missing something VIRGEL is trying to tell you.

Here's what VIRGEL says about a good .45 ACP JHP (in this case a Hornady 230 grain XTP) like you "used to carry" in your Glock 30:



Many consider 16" of bare gel penetration ideal and it won't be easy to do better than 58 grams of wound mass with something you can hold in one hand.

And here's VIRGEL's take on a .44 caliber 245 grain full wadcutter at 700 f/s:



Some might consider 20" of penetration to be over-penetration. And while 41 grams of wound mass is nothing to trifle with, it's about in the same league as the best 9mm JHPs or maybe even the classic FBI Load from a 4" .38 Special.

I think I'd go back to the Glock 30 with the whole magazine loaded with 230 grain XTPs.

[44MAG#1]

Mags,

I'm happy that you "found VIRGEL." You make it sound almost like a religious experience! But you may be missing something VIRGEL is trying to tell you.

Here's what VIRGEL says about a good .45 ACP JHP (in this case a Hornady 230 grain XTP) like you "used to carry" in your Glock 30:



Many consider 16" of bare gel penetration ideal and it won't be easy to do better than 58 grams of wound mass with something you can hold in one hand.

And here's VIRGEL's take on a .44 caliber 245 grain full wadcutter at 700 f/s:



Some might consider 20" of penetration to be over-penetration. And while 41 grams of wound mass is nothing to trifle with, it's about in the same league as the best 9mm JHPs or maybe even the classic FBI Load from a 4" .38 Special.

If it were me, I think I'd go back to the Glock 30 with the whole magazine loaded with 230 grain XTPs.

You are most certainly right. But I still will carry the first two out of that Glock JHP's and the rest FMJ Flat Points.
Now I have stooped down to the 357 Mag with a Wadcutter at 650 to 700 FPS.
Probably will eventually get down to a 25 ACP. The local gun shop has a couple.

[charlie b]

Back in the 'old days' we went after velocity to get reliable expansion of HP bullets. .45acp 185 and 200 gn JHP's at 1000fps were kinda the norm. Anything less and they didn't expand reliably. Also back then any type of thick clothing (even denim) would 'clog' the bullets and prevent expansion. This was also the time when many law enforcement agencies insisted on the .357mag and 125gn JHP's. Reliable expansion in almost any circumstance.

IMHO, the Winchester Silvertips were the first ones to show reliable expansion with short barrel .45acp. Now days almost all of the JHP's are reliable and, because of the FBI requirements, they will expand even when shooting through heavy clothing.

So, lusting after the extra 100 to 200fps is not 'worth it' anymore.

That puts us back to the question, is an expanded JHP more lethal than a non-expanded SWC or WFN? They do create a slightly larger wound channel, but, is that enough to be worth the 'trouble'? Fackler showed us that the extra dia of an expanded HP is not a huge game changer, especially in thin skinned animals It is the location of the wound channel that is important.

So, we are coming full circle kinda. Good SWC or WFN (or WC) at a velocity that gives full penetration.

[44MAG#1]

Back in the 'old days' we went after velocity to get reliable expansion of HP bullets. .45acp 185 and 200 gn JHP's at 1000fps were kinda the norm. Anything less and they didn't expand reliably. Also back then any type of thick clothing (even denim) would 'clog' the bullets and prevent expansion. This was also the time when many law enforcement agencies insisted on the .357mag and 125gn JHP's. Reliable expansion in almost any circumstance.

IMHO, the Winchester Silvertips were the first ones to show reliable expansion with short barrel .45acp. Now days almost all of the JHP's are reliable and, because of the FBI requirements, they will expand even when shooting through heavy clothing.

So, lusting after the extra 100 to 200fps is not 'worth it' anymore.

That puts us back to the question, is an expanded JHP more lethal than a non-expanded SWC or WFN? They do create a slightly larger wound channel, but, is that enough to be worth the 'trouble'? Fackler showed us that the extra dia of an expanded HP is not a huge game changer, especially in thin skinned animals It is the location of the wound channel that is important.

So, we are coming full circle kinda. Good SWC or WFN (or WC) at a velocity that gives full penetration.

W.D.M. Karamojo Bell proved that placement is more important than what you hit them with.

[charlie b]

Yep, Bell was one of my childhood heros. I always wanted a pre-war Mauser in 7x57. Just have never been able to justify the cost

[M-Tecs]

SD and hunting/culling are much different. When hunting/culling you normally pick the shot and placement. With self-defense you are forced to use deadly force by the aggressor so it's much like facing down a charge.

I've slaughtered many steers and hogs with a 22LR with zero issues with some pushing 1,200 pounds. I've only killed one Bologna bull and that was with a 22 Mag with zero issues yet that would be one of the last cartridges I would want to fend off a charge from an angry 2,200-pound bull.

Yes, shot placement is huge but what happens when it's a little off or underpowered is also a significant concern.

[44MAG#1]

Yes, shot placement is huge but what happens when it's a little off or underpowered is also a significant concern.

I guess you just empty the gun at them.
Really I said what I said because someone will use proper shot placement to cap off the conversation.
Why, who can argue against it? Like saying a 44 Magnum to the foot is not as effective as a 22RF to the brain.

[charlie b]

But, some people used to believe that a .44mag hit anywhere was good enough to stop anything (some might still believe that). Some still believe a shotgun is a 'point in the general direction' weapon and it will throw the target back 10 feet and kill them instantly, no matter where it hits.

Yes, shot placement and enough penetration are still key. And it is a cap to any conversation about effective calibers. It is what determines the effective range of a weapon, which includes the skill of the user and the circumstances of the shot. Even VIRGEL supports this. Yes, the permanent wound channel might be 1" instead of 1/2", but, unless you hit something vital it doesn't stop the target. It might eventually kill them from blood loss but that takes time.

If I were to face the close in charge of a bull/grizzly/etc I'd want a lot more than a rifle or pistol. I know I could not hit a vital organ in the time given with a moving/bouncing target (unless I got really lucky). I had to admit that years ago when I actually tried a charging/moving target scenario.