Came away from the HPWC experiments with one "rule".
It has to be heavy enough to push through whether it expands or not.
And then it seems to expand just fine.
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Came away from the HPWC experiments with one "rule".
It has to be heavy enough to push through whether it expands or not.
And then it seems to expand just fine.
Here are some low velocity water jug expansion tests in .380 ACP
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Cartridges of the World shows a Kynoch factory smokeless load with a 225 grain bullet at 700 f/s for the .450 Adams cartridge. But they don't mention the barrel length. With its Victorian metallurgy and 2-1/2" barrel, I'm not anxious to push my buddy's old Webley much beyond 550 f/s with the 230 grain MP "manstopper" bullet. From the picture below, it's clear that 550 f/s won't produce enough horsepower to turn the hollow point inside out.
If these flattop "mushrooms" would penetrate like your average modern day expanded JHP, then the models suggest about 12" of penetration and 37 grams of effective wound mass as shown below. That's almost identical to the terminal ballistics of the .38 Special FBI load fired from a 4" barrel. Nothing to be trifled with.
But I suspect that concave, trumpet-shaped mushrooms penetrate more like a wadcutter than the gently rounded convex "mushroom" shape of most expanded JHPs. In that case, the models show inadequate penetration and much less wound mass as shown below.
I didn't make any effort yesterday to "measure" penetration. But even without real gelatin, it shouldn't be too hard to compare the penetration of the Webley manstoppers against some well-known standards like, for example, target wadcutters or Gold Dots from a .38 snubby.
If it turns out that the expanded manstoppers penetrate like over-sized and under-penetrating wadcutters, then the smart money for the old Webley is probably just to cast those same bullets harder and load them as intended, with the hollow base next to the powder.
So, the plain old .45 wadcutter, even at just 550 f/s, should give more penetration and about the same wound mass as the best of modern JHPs from a .38 snubby and with none of the vagaries associated with hollow point expansion.
Last edited by pettypace; 04-17-2022 at 08:15 AM.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell
The old pre-WW2 British Kynoch catalog ballistics would have been based upon firings from a 5-inch solid industrial test barrel.
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Thanks, Outpost75.Originally Posted by Outpost75
What about Fiocchi? These seemed "hot" to me. I tried to convince my friend to pull the bullets and tone them down a bit. But he's unconvinced.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell
The Fiocchi ammo loaded to current CIP specs is hotter. Fine for the S&W Hand Ejectors and Colt New Service, but a bit robust for a top-breaks Webley if you want it to last.
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I don't have that one in my library. Can't download from the URL. *sigh*. Gone are the days when the NRA was such a valuable source of technical info.
Cognitive Dissident
Thanks. I have not seen this one. Great info.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
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[QUOTE=Outpost75;5378662]Here are some low velocity water jug expansion tests in .380 ACP
Outpost what was the alloy for these?? If you remember.
Thanks
[QUOTE=Fernando;5379037]1 to 40 tin-lead from Roto Metals
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[QUOTE=Outpost75;5379193]Thank you
Different caliber, more or less the same result:
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell
Do what Elmer did, use 20/1 alloy and push it to 1100 fps.
That could turn this six-shot Webley MP into a single shot.
"Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell
I picked up a 3-1/2" Pietta Sheriff Model .44-40 and a 4-1/2" Colt New Service .44-40 which should be interesting. Pre-WW2 WRA balloon-head rounds loaded with Sharpshooter powder and 200- grain JSP in the 3-1/2" revolver with 0.008" cylinder gap gave ~800 fps with zero expansion from the short barrel vs. 858 fps from a 5-1/2" Colt New Service revolver, with 0.008 cyl..gap, penetrating six gallon water jugs with no expansion. Got 953 fps with some expansion to .50"+ stopped in 5th jug from a 7-1/2" Colt SA with .006" cylinder gap. A useful 1900 snapshot time capsule. Just the thing to put down the recalcitrant bull. Will shoot the 4-1/2" New Service when it arrives.
Last edited by Outpost75; 03-27-2022 at 11:28 PM.
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Nice. Always had a soft spot for large bore and short barrel. Well, that and my wife never had a problem walking a can around the yard with her snub noses so the least I could do was keep up.That could turn this six-shot Webley MP into a single shot.
I did a number of tests on properly calibrated (resistance match to pork loin and deer leg which are the same) gelatin. Water and other mediums (clay, mud, newspapers), except perhaps that synthetic gel, should be ignored. I did tests using water and not only is it useless for determining penetration (which is at least as important as expansion), it tends to exaggerate expansive properties of hollowpoints and diminish it with solids.
My findings were stunningly consistent. They could follow formula. And I suspect that millitaries throughout the world figured this out a long time ago.
Regarding handguns with solid cast bullets. No real expansion is observed at all until you are going somewhat above 1200 FPS impact velocity. You will observe deformation, but this isn't the same as the "mushrooming effect". Once you crank it up to 1400 or greater you start to observe effective expansion in solids. How many handguns have an impact velocity of 1400 FPS? I found 1100 FPS to be about a break point. Interestingly this is about the speed of sound in air at normal elevations.
With hollowpoints you observe consistent expansion down to about 750 FPS impact velocity or so. I like 800 FPS or more with a SOFT alloy containing no antimony, only tin. The problem is that at such low velocity there really isn't an abundance of momentum to carry that expanded bullet very deep. The classic 38 SPL+P loaded with a 158 grain or so soft SWCHP out of a 1 7/8" snubbie gets just under a foot of penetration, usually 9-10" with a 4 layer denim cover. This was recognized as an effective load because it is. No more effective non-jacketed load I have found for a snub nose 38. It basically defines cast hollow point performance at the bottom end of the performance envelope. Out a 4" revolver this load improves owning to the almost 100 FPS it can pick up, getting it to penetrate over a foot and still holding together.
Really soft hollow points fragment if you push them too hard. 850-900 FPS you will start to see fragging, not on every one usually, but sometimes "tearing". Like one of six or so. At 357 mag velocity you will frag unless the alloy is toughened up with more tin and copper. 16:1 works, so does an alloy I call 96-2-2. Which has equal by wight parts antimony and tin (together added at once ounce per pound), is harder than 16:1, and is cheaper as it has half as much tin. Once you are up to 3% antimony it seems to "crystallize" the alloy greatly increasing brittleness and will cause fragmentation to a significant degree. Wheel weights, especially older ones, seem to have too much antimony. Tin, if you can get some, is your friend.
One of epiphanies I had regarding cast hollowpoints is that they act like a little parachute. If you get expansion, you will reduce penetration, in almost a linear fashion I suspect. Penetration can be improved by lengthening the bullet (adding mass) or by increasing velocity (but this also may increase penetration or cause fragmentation which results in loss of mass and reduction of penetration). The straightforward way is to increase mass. This is why 38 SPL+P beats 9mm with cast bullets IMO.
Predicting the performance of hollowpints is not trivial. All my testing was done almost perfectly perpendicular to the gel block. The few tests I did at angles revealed that really big cast hollow point cavities with thin walls like to collapse rather than expand, sometimes you get a half expanded bullet or something (this is sadly true of that 38 SWCHP). It seriously eroded by "trust" in them. I found that jacketed hollowpoints are quite a different animal too. The much tougher jacket allows the use of very soft lead alloys for the core and it arrests expansion, prevents fragmentation, allowing the manufacturer to really dial in the performance profile. Of all the jacketed bullets I tested I have have some favorites. I even did "barrier" testing shooting plywood and my wife's cookie sheets. The Federal 130 grain HST bullet in their 38+P defensive loads is the last word in snub gun loads as far as I am concerned, though it is annoyingly difficult to use with a speedloader. And the Hornady 158 grain XTPHP in 357 full sized (4" barrel or longer) revolvers and the 180 grain XTPHP in 357 rifles. 147 grain XTPHP in 9mm loaded hot.
Compared to solids it is a chore. This is one of the reasons why I made a paradigm shift to using big bore cast solids instead of medium bore cast hollowpoints for handgun hunting (though I confess I still have a fondness for 357 Max with 180 grain Hornady XTPHP). Big bore solids are stupidly predictable (the make a hole of crushed tissues at least as big as the diameter and usually perforate normal sized animals at any angle). So it leaves more time/energy to focus on achieving accuracy and consistency. For me big bore starts at about .43".
Last edited by curioushooter; 03-29-2022 at 01:35 PM.
I call them drag chute hollow points.
It's that pop open and slow down behavior that made me go with as heavy as appeared to work.
Interesting. What weight were the HBWC's, and were they from Matt's Bullets? I do know that Matt will work with you on hardness; so I figure you could specify 40:1 alloy.Different caliber, more or less the same result:
Britons shall never be slaves.
What medium were these bullets shot into?
Water is my guess. Without 4 layers of denim. And no depth of penetration data.
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