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Thread: Bullet Expansion at "Leisurely" Velocities

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Hit 820-830 fps and call it close enough
    I had just enough time before heading off to the Snubbyfest range to reset the new adjustable weight HPWC mould to about 130 grains and cast a handful from 16:1 alloy. Loaded with Bullseye and filled the HP cavity with hot-melt glue. Results, such as they are, shown below:



    Probably nothing to be learned about HST's from this test. Only the first bullet (the only one fired into bare gel) "flipped." Of the four bullets fired through four layers of denim, two over-expanded and under-penetrated. Clearly, the hot-melt glue does not reliably control expansion, one way or the other.

    The array of gello "slabs" used in this test is shown below. Note the expanded bullet that ended its penetration between slabs 7 and 8.



    More on the gello slabs later.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  2. #62
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    Just as a guess the spaced gelatin might enable more tumbling or penetration or maybe both in the nonexpanding examples. A nonexpanding bullet of this type may have a lot of variability so it may indicate something.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Just as a guess the spaced gelatin might enable more tumbling or penetration or maybe both in the nonexpanding examples. A nonexpanding bullet of this type may have a lot of variability so it may indicate something.
    Testing was not exactly "scientific" and the gello slabs open up a new can of worms. But the first shot was interesting because it appeared to come out of slab 5 nose first...



    and go into slab 6 on its side...



    I'm still gonna look for some HST's to test and something better than hot-melt glue to clog the cavity.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  4. #64
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    In firing HPWC's down into five gallon buckets of water (from high enough to avoid most of the spray ) I found that tumbling was common. Not uncommon to see the side lip of the mushroom being the first thing to strike the bottom. Also happened with .45ACP expansion tests.

  5. #65
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    .41 Mag with 2 1/2" barrel, ten grains of AA5, fired into water jelled paper.

    Decided on AA5 instead AA9 to keep the flash down.
    Last edited by Good Cheer; 05-23-2022 at 04:24 PM.

  6. #66
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    Used the deeper hollow point plug.

  7. #67
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    Interesting stuff.

    If I could improve the HST it would be to get it to expand to a more modest diameter with more shank, but I suppose the engineering challenge is to get a shallower hollowpoint cavity to work properly with clothing. I think Federal is on to something here but it needs a 2.0 if possible. Which is why in many instances I still carry wadcutters.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    .41 Mag with 2 1/2" barrel, ten grains of AA5, fired into water jelled paper.

    Decided on AA5 instead AA9 to keep the flash down.
    Well done, Good Cheer!

    What weight, velocity, and alloy was that?
    Last edited by pettypace; 05-24-2022 at 07:25 AM.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  9. #69
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    Using the crimp groove, that's with the deeper plug adjusted out to the maximum boolit length that the cylinder allows; with the gas check they weight 208.5 grains. The mystery metal alloy is somewhere around medium for revolvers. I can carve corners with a thumb nail and the lube groove disappeared on the fired slug. I'm sure some zinc weights slipped in and there's some tin added for flow. About velocity, I haven't chronographed the 10 grain load yet.

    The primers don't show much flattening at all. The boolit length behind the crimp groove is actually shorter than old standby #410610 so golly, it could likely take whatever the Lyman 45th Edition shows and jack it up from there. But, that said, it's already expanding rapidly with that medium range load of AA5.

  10. #70
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    Here's some food for thought:



    Bullets on the left are commercial "Targetmaster" wadcutters from a stash left over from the good ol' days. I've been shooting a couple each session to try to "calibrate" the gello. Despite having virtually no hollow point cavity, these seem to consistently bump up to 0.38"-0.40". I haven't paid a lot of attention, but I know I've seen more or less the same thing through denim. (See Brassfetcher's data here.)

    Bullets on the right are 200 grainers with a deep hollow point. Through water or bare gel, they consistently over-expand into what amounts to a 60 caliber wadcutter with insufficient penetration. I haven't done much testing, but through denim they seem inconsistent.

    Here's the math for the target wadcutters:



    And for the over-expanding (and under-penetrating) 200 grainers:



    For comparison, here's what the FBI load looks like from a 4-inch barrel into bare gel:



    Here's what a (hypothetical) .38 Special Super Police Target Wadcutter load might look like if it would consistently bump up to about 0.41".



    And here's what Good Cheer's 41 mag HPWC might look like with a shallow cup hollow point that bumps up to 0.45".

    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  11. #71
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    Reminds me of the reports from the 1860's of revolvers' performance during the war, round ball versus conicals.

  12. #72
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    Good Cheer: I was hoping you might be inspired to turn up another hollow point plug for that .41 Magnum mould. I'm thinking that something about half as deep as your shallow plug might bump the nose out to .45 caliber at modest velocity.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  13. #73
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    Hey there.
    Well, those three plugs shown in the picture are the ones I have. This set of blocks is a SWC altered to use the base plug set from my .40 caliber muzzleloader, paper patching.
    The loads tested are of castings created using that longest cavity, the lightest weight boolit for the cylinder length while using the crimp groove. The smaller cavity plug is gonna get tried out eventually but the boolit could be crimped ahead of the front drive band too. That will let the boolit weight be run up some (smaller cavity and longer boolit) and still fit the cylinder length.
    Any how, that's the plan for now.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    Interesting stuff.

    If I could improve the HST it would be to get it to expand to a more modest diameter with more shank, but I suppose the engineering challenge is to get a shallower hollowpoint cavity to work properly with clothing. I think Federal is on to something here but it needs a 2.0 if possible. Which is why in many instances I still carry wadcutters.
    Why would they? The Federal HST is already about the best performing self-defense bullet on the market today. It reliably expands even at modest velocities, and short barrels, yet in every caliber or load I've seen have also penetrated more than 12" into ballistics gel. I don't see how expanding less would improve anything. If you want more penetration for hunting or whatever, Federal already has hunting bullets like the Fusion. They just don't work that good from a snub nose 38.

  15. #75
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    Because in a number of tests I’ve seen it often doesn’t reliably go 12.” For an example see link earlier in thread. Instead of being barely adequate in the best case scenario and often less than the suggested 12 inches in a lot of other tests I’d like to see four or five inches more.

    It might be great in other calibers, but in 38 it is barely adequate at best and inadequate at other times. Not all HST is the best available in a particular caliber, and that is true here.

  16. #76
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    I lifted the following from another thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by shooting on a shoestring View Post
    Standard caveats. Don’t try this at home. It worked in my gun this time. Don’t know if it’ll work in yours.

    At this time there is no loading data available for 30 Super Carry. But that doesn’t matter because I used a surplus powder that is not listed loading manuals. It is very close AA#5. It is not BR5. I worked up to a charge of 5.5 grains. The primers looked very much like full throttle 357 loads but not as flat as 220 Swift loads.
    ...

    The boolit I used was Accurate 31-117E cast 96% Pb, 2% Sb and 2% Sn, air cooled, aged 1 week, lubed with Felix lube, sized 0.316”.
    ...

    I chronographed all the loads today at 97 degrees F. Yep a hot day in May in Central Texas. 5 shot strings.
    ...

    My final load of 5.5 of a surplus #5 type powder, 117 grain boolit gave 1153 fps, sdev 6, hi 1161, lo 1146, es 15 fps.
    ...

    I fired the hand load into a row of 10, 1-gallon water jugs. The first jug was shredded, the second ripped, the third just holed both sides, the fourth caught the boolit. The fifth jug was hit hard enough to pop the sealed top from the jug. The boolit expanded from the 0.304” nose OD to 0.430-0.440”.

    Attachment 300433

    The 50k psi pressure 30 Super Carry can run does allow it to punch above its weight.
    Much thanks to shooting on a shoestring for the details and the picture.

    While 1150 f/s is not exactly a "leisurely" velocity and 50k psi is a bit strong for Victorian era handguns, the picture clearly shows the ability of wadcutter bullets to "rivet" up to significantly larger diameters with no hollow point cavity at all. In this case, a .31 caliber wadcutter turned into .44 caliber wadcutter after hitting a plastic jug of water at 1150 f/s.

    The last "Targetmaster" wadcutter I fired from my snubby bumped up from .35 caliber to .40 caliber on hitting bare C-B gel at about 650 f/s.



    I wonder what a soft lead wadcutter with a shallow saucer-shaped cavity would do through four layers of denim?
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by pettypace View Post

    I wonder what a soft lead wadcutter with a shallow saucer-shaped cavity would do through four layers of denim?
    In a rush job before last week's Snubbyfest I made some .38 caliber, 172 grain, soft lead HPHBWCs with a simple wooden jig clamped to the drill press table. Here are the results of three shots fired from a snubby through four layers of well worn denim backed by a half-gallon milk carton full of water and into an array of 1.2 inch thick slabs of C-B gell at about 675 f/s.



    The expanded diameters of all three bullets ranged from 0.40" to 0.41". All three bullets penetrated through 11 slabs of the gello with one going about half way through the next slab.

    Assuming that nose shape justifies treating these as wadcutters rather than mushrooms, here's what the models predict for penetration and wound mass:



    This is deeper penetration and about the same or more wound mass than most premium .38 Special ammo from a snubby (see, for example, brassfetcher's data here). It makes me think a little work on a heavy .38 Special version of Webley's "manstopper" design might be worthwhile.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

  18. #78
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    A bit surprised the denim didn’t clog things up but what the heck it seems to work fairly well. For various reasons I’d like to stick to more standard weight. Would not be surprising if the 38 snubby is optimized with a lead bullet.

  19. #79
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    A dry medium will usually result in outward expansion of a HPWC if the alloy is soft enough and the velocity is high enough, a function of the outside of the nose wall being supported less than the inside.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
    A bit surprised the denim didn’t clog things up but what the heck it seems to work fairly well. For various reasons I’d like to stick to more standard weight. Would not be surprising if the 38 snubby is optimized with a lead bullet.
    As you expected, the denim had its effect.



    Left: Unfired. Middle: CB gel slabs only. Right: 4LD + milk carton H20 + CB gel slabs

    In bare gel, the shallow DIY hollow point bumped to about 0.45" and seemed consistent for the three shots fired. With the denim, the general shape was less consistent but the diameter stayed between 0.40" and 0.41" for the three shots fired.
    "Totalitarianism demands, in fact, the continuous alteration of the past, and in the long run probably demands a disbelief in the very existence of objective truth.” --George Orwell

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check