FFL vs Trust for NFA items

[HATCH]

My understanding was that in order to be added to the trust, you had to submit fingerprints and passport photos. Is that not correct?

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

I sent you a PM with my cell number. I am heading to bed in a 1/2 hr as the weekdays are long.
The ONLY time fingerprints or photographs are submitted is when you are submitting a form (either form 1 or form 4)
As mentioned above, ANYONE that is listed as a trustee at the time of form submission MUST fill out a F5320 Responsible persons questionnaire. Basically its the same questions as what you fill out on a 4473 when you purchase a firearm. They must also submit fingerprints and a photo.

-Story time -

My son turned 18 last month. Legally he is able to posses short barrel rifles and suppressors that are owned by the trust.
The only thing I have to do to add him as a trustee is to make a amendment, print it and sign it. It isn't filed anywhere. I don't have to send anything to the ATF. Nothing but doing the amendment.

-end of story time -

I can discuss this more over the phone if you like.

[Multra]

ITAR is required to (legally) operate as an 07 FFL, it's on the order of $2k/year.

[kerplode]

I have a trust for the majority of my NFA items. The ones that aren't on a trust were purchase long before I had kids and didn't think about it.
As mentioned above it does allow for multiple people to have access to your NFA items provided they are listed as a trustee.
In my case, currently my oldest brother, my wife and myself have access to my NFA items. Initially it did cover my dad and my second oldest brother also but I removed them with a amendment. My son just turned 18 so I will be adding him to my trust in the next few months (when I get around to it)

Lets talk about responsible persons and trusts. Please review my wording carefully.

At the time of application for your form (1 or 4) any person you have listed as a trustee MUST submit fingerprints and photos.
This is a requirement.
However, one of the advantages is that trusts can be amended at any time for any reason and the ATF doesn't have to get notified. The only time the ATF know what trustees are on your trust is when you file your initial paperwork (form 1 or form 4).

Trustees can be added or removed as quickly as it takes for you to print out the form and sign it.
So it is possible to have a trust with only 1 person on it, YOU. So only you have to submit fingerprints and only you have to submit a photograph.
You can make a amendment at a later time adding the trustees just like you can make a amendment removing them.

What happens when you die to your NFA items that are in your trust??? - you have a schedule of beneficiaries and you can list either %'s or you can list individual items.
I have individual items listed for stuff my brother has and I have %'s listed for the rest.

This is the only issue you have with a trust.
Anyone listed as a trustee can sell any item in the trust provided they have the trust paperwork and a copy of the ATF form (form 1 or form 4).
So make sure you trust people in your trust.

I used the $99 gun trust several years ago. The bulk of my trust NFA items are Form 1 items (short barrel rifles and suppressors). I do have a couple form 4 commercial cans.

Exactly...Above is 100% correct. And I completely agree with your comment about only adding those you trust to your trust. IIRC, the only thing a non-grantor trustee can't do is dissolve the trust completely.

My form to add trustees has two spots for the new trustee to sign...One spot to accept becoming a trustee and one spot to resign. For the resignation, there is a spot for me to sign to accept said resignation. So, when I add someone, I have them sign both the acceptance and resignation at the same time. Then, if it becomes necessary later, I can unilaterally remove them by signing and dating my acceptance of their resignation. But as long as I haven't accepted their resignation, they are a valid trustee. (I hope that makes sense...I'm not sure I described it well...)

[kerplode]

My understanding was that in order to be added to the trust, you had to submit fingerprints and passport photos. Is that not correct?

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

As Hatch stated, it is not required to submit anything when adding trustees (as long as you don't alter the trust while a transfer is pending).

From the ATF's Q&A related to 41F:
Attachment 298003

You can find the doc I snipped that out of here:
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...ective-july-13

So when you want to add something new to the trust, you can remove all trustees but yourself ahead of time, then add everyone back after the transfer is approved. As long as you're not buying tons of NFA stuff, then it's not too much of a hassle.

[ryanmattes]

ITAR is required to (legally) operate as an 07 FFL, it's on the order of $2k/year.

That has either been changed, or there's a proposed change in process. The proposed change was to limit it to dealers in listed military equipment, and excludes weapons in common use.

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

[HATCH]

So when you want to add something new to the trust, you can remove all trustees but yourself ahead of time, then add everyone back after the transfer is approved. As long as you're not buying tons of NFA stuff, then it's not too much of a hassle.

I have only added items once and it was five items done at the same time (all form 1). I did a amendment removing all trustees.
Then once I got all my approvals, I did a amendment voiding all previous amendments, changed the trust address, and removed two trustees. I shredded the first amendment.
The only issue that I run into is that some items are stored at a alternate location (atf 5320.20 form) and basically the trustee loses access to them while the additions are in process (typically less then 30 days for a form 1)

What is more of a hassle, getting fingerprints and photos of your trustees or doing a amendment???

[kerplode]

What is more of a hassle, getting fingerprints and photos of your trustees or doing a amendment???

Well, like I said, it depends on how often you're buying things. You did yours all at once, so it was one amendment. If you had spread them out so that they were all a year apart, you would have had to do a bunch of amendments...Either that, or you would have had a trust with no other trustees for a long period of time, which could be a problem depending on your exposure for constructive possession by your now-no-longer-trustee family members. Maybe neither of those are a big deal, but for some they might be. Just pointing out that it could be a potential headache for some. Perhaps for someone who is a frequent buyer and has one or two trustees, maybe it's easier to just leave them on and submit fingerprints/photos...

But fundamentally, I think we're arguing the same point here...A trust is a cost effective and flexible path to NFA ownership.

[Multra]

That has either been changed, or there's a proposed change in process. The proposed change was to limit it to dealers in listed military equipment, and excludes weapons in common use.

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

The change went through, the state department is ignoring it. If you call them up they will send you the old rules and tell you that is what they are operating under.

[Bentstick]

Anybody use Silencer Central? They are supposed to handle the trust paperwork for you for free. Seems like a good deal.

yes it was not without issue because of a ATF change in a policy but the trust was done and accepted, just waiting for approval all paper work submitted 2-04-2022 the second time, when issue arrived and I got the denial e-mail I had a phone call from Silencer Central within 24 hrs and things were done again and resubmitted so just humbly setting by awaiting, they are very easy to work with and pleasant to talk to on phone if you have ?'s or problems, so far a pleasant dealing with them, the Trust was free with purchase IIRC