Jeff Cooper 45 Auto Load

[Finster101]

Quote Originally Posted by tejano View Post
I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important."

"Interesting way to look at it. He does have a point.

45_Colt"



I can't agree with that at all. If you lack confidence that the gun you carry will not get the job done without having dangerously hot loads in it, then perhaps you need a different gun. What good is a locked up or blown-up gun if there is more than one bad guy or heaven forbid you miss. After all we are all crack shots aren't we, especially in a high stress situation.

[Char-Gar]

If the load was correct I'd say there was something wrong with your m1911 [probably a weak firing pin spring that didn't function properly under the increased slide velocity. It is correct firing pin spring tension that drives the firing pin back into the firing pin stop holding it in place as the hammer is pivoted off it during slide movement to the rear. If the spring is defective the firing pin most often fails to hold the stop in pace and it falls out with the firing pin then falling out also.

A defect of the handgun, not Cooper's load.

I have fired many, many, perhaps thousands of Cooper's 7.5 gr Unique under a 200 gr bullet (both jacketed and cast) over the years through numerous M1911s w/o a single mishap.

I don't doubt that was the problem. It was a stock USGI pistol that had the original WWII springs. The pistol had not been rebuilt.

That said, long ago I quite trying to push a round beyond it's established top pressure. I know that many do, but I don't. It took a hard lesson or two to curb my youthful enthusiasm for high pressure loads. "If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer". This is just a personal thing with me, others can do as they wish.

[TurnipEaterDown]

TruckJohn: Your cartridge "...rimless between a 308 and a 7.62x39. I'd love to see something short and stubby, maybe around 223 length" pretty well describes to Remington 30 AR. To me, it was a shame it met deaf ears when hitting the market.
From time to time I thought it would be very useful to have a Garand tanker rechambered to 35 Whelen, or an AR10 in 325 WSM (JD Jones used to do). While maybe not perfectly Scout (whatever it is in reality), I always thought these would be pretty broadly applicable for game size, type & range, and be well mated w/ a low-mid variable mounted out there a bit. (I have gravitated for many hunts to my 35 Whelen Improved bolt wearing a 1-4x variable.)

[Nick Adams]

Not a Jeff Cooper fan, but read a lot of his GUNS & AMMO material beginning in the early '60s. I wouldn't use any of his recommended data, though some of his loads may be safe. In an earlier post, someone mentioned using 5grs. of Bullseye with a 200 or 230 grain cast bullet. Good advice, and that's plenty for anything a .45 ACP would be used for.

That was me, using coated H&G-pattern 230grn HC boolits. 4.8 - 5.0grns of Bullseye pretty much duplicates a Mil ball load. I’ve even shot it in 3” 1911s (Defender size) with excellent results. In fact, 5.0grns isn’t even a max load.

That’s why Col. Cooter gets sideways glances from experienced .45acp reloaders for suggesting 7.5grns of Unique.

You have to wonder how many 1911s eventually Kaboom-skied on a steady diet of that load.

[Larry Gibson]

That was me, using coated H&G-pattern 230grn HC boolits. 4.8 - 5.0grns of Bullseye pretty much duplicates a Mil ball load. I’ve even shot it in 3” 1911s (Defender size) with excellent results. In fact, 5.0grns isn’t even a max load.

That’s why Col. Cooter gets sideways glances from experienced .45acp reloaders for suggesting 7.5grns of Unique.

You have to wonder how many 1911s eventually Kaboom-skied on a steady diet of that load.

Perhaps those "experienced .45acp reloaders" giving "sideways glances" actually had no factual idea. The fact is, in the 45 ACP cartridge, 5 gr of Bullseye under a 230 gr TC generates basically the pressure as 7.5 gr of Unique under a 200 gr SWC. The difference is about 150 fps so they "think" the pressure is higher. It is not.

[Texas by God]

I enjoyed reading Cooper more so than Keith, O'Connor, or Askins. His bloviations didnt reach the heights of those three in my opinion. I've used the Unique/200SWC load but I just like the Bullseye/230TC load better.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[txbirdman]

“I'd love to see something short and stubby, maybe around 223 length, based on a shortened 308, that shot a 160gr pointy hunting bullet around 30-30 velocities, but it doesn't exist. The 7.62x39 would be a lot better choice if not hampered by the roomy military chamber and 0.312" groove diameter. “

Savage is making such a rifle called the “Hog Hunter” I believe. It’s in 350 Legend.

[2stepTex]

I beg to differ! Mass can be weighed by using gravity: W = mg --> m = W/g,
where:
W = weight,
m = mass,
g = the acceleration of gravity.
That is to say that, if you measure mass on the moon, it will be different that if measured on earth. Newtonian mass is measured using one mass traveling at a known speed, colliding into another mass and measuring it final speed after collision and rebound. I know because I stayed awake during that lecture.

The second attachment submitted at this thread's initiation is too blurry to read, but it appears that Jeff Cooper is/was some type of law enforcement official, and NOT a physicist. Hence, his IQ was more geared towards staying alive while taking down bad guys and NOT contemplating kinematics and interior ballistics of firearms. So without additional (intelligible) information, it is difficult to determine his credibility based on a single article.

[frank505]

I have shot Col Coopers loads for years in 1911s. Never cracked a frame, even the “fragile “ aluminum frames. Larry Gibson ran pressure tests on the Cooper loads. Might want to look that up.
The scout rifle concept is for folks that hunt, not sit in a blind. As a general purpose rifle the scout rifle is a marvelous tool. Lightweight, which is important when hunting on foot for miles. Handy which is important for a snap shot and carrying.
I rather doubt you detractors of Col Cooper would say such idiotic things to his face. If you read his books, possibly you might learn some things that could help you.

[44MAG#1]

2stepTex

You have a PM

[tejano]

My Cooper books from many moons ago were lost in a move. I wish I still had them. In his prime the man was damn smart and insightful. Did he slip in his “golden years”? Probably. I know I have. And, no doubt, worse is yet to come if I live long enough.

[Larry Gibson]

Seems we're all headed in that direction eventually. Fortunately, I have my own "Janelle".........

I too was a lion once, and young......

[44MAG#1]

What can happen to the human mind is awful. Some keep a good strong mind till they get very old. Some start having problems early on and some later. We all have those observant people that always sit on the outskirts of every agony and point. I wonder if the pointers ever think that they may become the pointee someday?

[Abert Rim]

Interesting thread. I always got a kick out of Cooper, as he was a very colorful and descriptive writer. For example, his analysis of the .25 ACP: "This is a 1906 design which should never have happened. It is adapted to cheap, blow-back pocket pistols which are useful only as threats. Anyone shot with this cartridge is apt to become emotional and resort to violence."
And of the various old .32 Shorts: "These are the cartridges for the bureau-drawer specials with which badly trained children have accidents."
Keeping in mind that I was reading this as a 12-year-old in the "Outdoor Life Book of Shooting" in 1965, I tended to believe the colonel knew his stuff. And when he discussed the properly loaded .45, I could almost hear a choir of angels.
I've lost track of which load supposedly cracks frames, but do note the Lyman manual No. 51 shows a max of 7.3 grains of Unique pushing their 225-grain #452374 at 905 fps and a pressure of 16,500 C.U.P.
This does not seem to teeter on the edge of disaster.
As to blowhards, it is hard to beat Keith on gun fighting, much as I admire the man's life experience and willingness to push envelopes in the name of real progress.

[curioushooter]

I've found that Unique is great for 200 grain bullets and PowerPistol bests it for 230s. My current favored load for "social work" is 230 grain V-crown over 8 grains of Power Pistol. Still haven't loaded up cast boolits for this! This is a stout load but not crazy. Now you're all telling me Bullseye is THE powder for 200 grain SWCs? See if I can find some! I was going to try tightgroup. Anyone have any experience?

"I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont.
As far as speaking about or on subjects we know little about, who doesn't do it. It is all around us at work, at home, at Church, at the range, or on shooting forums or anywhere people gather or are.
So he would be no different on that aspect of being human than you, me, our parents or any other person. "

I've only got 38 years of living but I recognize this as indeed a wise observation. To be fair to Cooper he did change his mind about things and generally had reasons for it. For example, he originally thought the ideal "fighting handgun" was a 1873 Colt, or at least he claimed he thought this. Like Keith he favored large diameters, but so does physics. Keith preferred revolvers and Cooper auto-pistols. The more I go I tend to agree with Keith. It's not that I don't understand their arguments, and things like capacity are just simple numbers that are easily compared 15 > 8 > 6 for example. But there are little things that Keith was really right about. He said in Sixguns that pistols tend to "hop around" in your hand when you try to shoot them rapidly. This is an unwelcome sensation for me and one I was sort of unfamiliar with until I got a 1911. I learned something here, and really knew little about large bore auto pistols before this.

The key is willingness to learn and seek the truth, which is much bigger than any person. To me the scientific process of discovery, though limited in what it can tell us, is very useful. Thankfully things in gun-world can generally be subjected to the scientific process.

[ddixie884]

I have shot Col Coopers loads for years in 1911s. Never cracked a frame, even the “fragile “ aluminum frames. Larry Gibson ran pressure tests on the Cooper loads. Might want to look that up.
The scout rifle concept is for folks that hunt, not sit in a blind. As a general purpose rifle the scout rifle is a marvelous tool. Lightweight, which is important when hunting on foot for miles. Handy which is important for a snap shot and carrying.
I rather doubt you detractors of Col Cooper would say such idiotic things to his face. If you read his books, possibly you might learn some things that could help you.

+1.....................

[Alferd Packer]

Ah Jeff Cooper
If only he was still around
to answer for his pronouncements
Many of which are maybe misquoted
and are being loaded and shot in firearms over a 100 years old.
As well ask John Browning who designed the almost perfect round, caliber and firearm many moons ago.
J.Cooper is just another fan of the 1911 like many others.
It's not a manstopper, but it comes close and has given many a handgunner confidence in close encounters of the first kind.
Enough for me, with discretion, of course.

Also, remember that old saw
That every firearm is a law unto itself.

[MT Gianni]

I've found that Unique is great for 200 grain bullets and PowerPistol bests it for 230s. My current favored load for "social work" is 230 grain V-crown over 8 grains of Power Pistol. Still haven't loaded up cast boolits for this! This is a stout load but not crazy. Now you're all telling me Bullseye is THE powder for 200 grain SWCs? See if I can find some! I was going to try tightgroup. Anyone have any experience?

"I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont.
As far as speaking about or on subjects we know little about, who doesn't do it. It is all around us at work, at home, at Church, at the range, or on shooting forums or anywhere people gather or are.
So he would be no different on that aspect of being human than you, me, our parents or any other person. "

I've only got 38 years of living but I recognize this as indeed a wise observation. To be fair to Cooper he did change his mind about things and generally had reasons for it. For example, he originally thought the ideal "fighting handgun" was a 1873 Colt, or at least he claimed he thought this. Like Keith he favored large diameters, but so does physics. Keith preferred revolvers and Cooper auto-pistols. The more I go I tend to agree with Keith. It's not that I don't understand their arguments, and things like capacity are just simple numbers that are easily compared 15 > 8 > 6 for example. But there are little things that Keith was really right about. He said in Sixguns that pistols tend to "hop around" in your hand when you try to shoot them rapidly. This is an unwelcome sensation for me and one I was sort of unfamiliar with until I got a 1911. I learned something here, and really knew little about large bore auto pistols before this.

The key is willingness to learn and seek the truth, which is much bigger than any person. To me the scientific process of discovery, though limited in what it can tell us, is very useful. Thankfully things in gun-world can generally be subjected to the scientific process.

If your looking at powders, look up what Ramshot Silhuette does in the 45 ACP. IIRC it was 1050 fps with a 200 gr bullet and not a + P load.

[siamese4570]

I also read all of Col. Coopers articles in G&A back in the day. The one thing that I remember is he was recommending a 230 gr truncated cone shaped boolit foe the 45 acp.
Siamese4570

[ddixie884]

Perhaps those "experienced .45acp reloaders" giving "sideways glances" actually had no factual idea. The fact is, in the 45 ACP cartridge, 5 gr of Bullseye under a 230 gr TC generates basically the pressure as 7.5 gr of Unique under a 200 gr SWC. The difference is about 150 fps so they "think" the pressure is higher. It is not.

True that.