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Thread: Jeff Cooper 45 Auto Load

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44MAG#1 View Post
    I have learned one important thing in 69 years of living. It is that anyone that never changes their mind on any particular subject is one who either is never learning anything else on the subject due to being hard headed, ignorant or intolerant to ever believing they could ever be wrong about something. I have formed opinions on subjects 40 years ago that I have changed over time due to learning more. sometimes learning more can either show us we are still correct or that we may be partly wrong or totally wrong about our first opinion. Learned people will change their opinion and stubborn, intolerant people wont...........
    Agree 100%+

    I have definitely learned many things I thought I had learned years ago really are not that way. Especially in this shooting game.......I am always learning.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  2. #22
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    I am a little late to the party because I had to search through several boxes to find a target I kept from the 80's when my body and eyes were much younger. The outdoor range where I used to shoot back then was pretty basic. Unless you were the only one on the pistol range, you were limited to shooting a 25 yards, standing or off the bench. One day I decided to try Cooper's 7.5 gr. Unique load for the first time. The pistol was a Colt Combat Government which the prior owner had adorned with a Millett target rear and red front sight. The bullet was a commercially purchased cast 185 gr. SWC. The first five shots off the bench were so good (for me anyway) that I knew I should have quit, but of course I didn't. Several times afterwards I shot the same load, but never as well.

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    Sadly, that old Colt is long gone. Somewhere along the line I got the itch for something new and expensive so it became trade bait.

  3. #23
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    The only case head I ever blew was using Jeff's 230 grain Unique load. Got my face sprayed and a few pinpricks of blood, but no other damage. I've never pushed auto pistol loads since (this was about thirty years ago) and it taught me that Jeff was no expert in handloading. Later I read how he had someone else load up 200 rounds for "Baby", his .460 G&A magnum. So he had a wildcat rifle and couldn't or wouldn't even load his own ammo for it.

    His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns!
    Rule 303

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piedmont View Post
    The only case head I ever blew was using Jeff's 230 grain Unique load. Got my face sprayed and a few pinpricks of blood, but no other damage. I've never pushed auto pistol loads since (this was about thirty years ago) and it taught me that Jeff was no expert in handloading. Later I read how he had someone else load up 200 rounds for "Baby", his .460 G&A magnum. So he had a wildcat rifle and couldn't or wouldn't even load his own ammo for it.

    His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns!
    What was Cooper's 230 grain bullet load with Unique?

  5. #25
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    His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns![/QUOTE]


    I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important. I owned several J frame revolvers over the years and I never tried his Red Dot load.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejano View Post
    I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important.
    Interesting way to look at it. He does have a point.

    45_Colt

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tejano View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Piedmont View Post
    His Red Dot .38 Special load he published for a J frame makes me cringe. Not in my guns!
    I remember him writing in his book Cooper on Handguns, that the shooter had to decide whether his life or the gun's life was more important.
    Honestly, I roll my eyes at most of what Cooper wrote/said. He was an arrogant blowhard.

    I wouldn't shoot his loads either. It's all fun and games until some ridiculous load you've convinced yourself is OK because "my life is more important than my gun's life" blinds or maims you. It'd be doubly stupid if the time things decided to come apart was mid gunfight.

  8. #28
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    I found some of Cooper's writing style to be arrogant, but then he was a Stanford graduate and a former Marine officer. He had more than most to be arrogant about. In any event, I admired his unabashed conservative opinions. I bought his baby, the Steyr Scout rifle, shortly after it became available. I still have it.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy Nick Adams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerplode View Post
    Honestly, I roll my eyes at most of what Cooper wrote/said. He was an arrogant blowhard.
    I wouldn't shoot his loads either. It's all fun and games until some ridiculous load you've convinced yourself is OK because "my life is more important than my gun's life" blinds or maims you. It'd be doubly stupid if the time things decided to come apart was mid gunfight.
    Old Col. Coot especially contradicted himself (typically without explaining why) in his statements in support of his Scout Rifle theory.

    The “making weight” aspect is just one glaring instance. First, it was a “drop-dead” max weight of 6.4lbs. Then it became a max weight of 6.9lbs. The, still later, he was okay with a max weight of 7.7lbs.

    Anything else was relegated to “pseudo-Scout” status.

    Toward the end, he would still hold court and pontificate, at least when prompted by the resident sycophants, but occasionally could be found seated at a table snoring hard and drooling in his oatmeal.

    Much of what he wrote, including his early books, is worth reading.

    A lot of what he wrote later, isn’t.

  10. #30
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    Not a Jeff Cooper fan, but read a lot of his GUNS & AMMO material beginning in the early '60s. I wouldn't use any of his recommended data, though some of his loads may be safe. In an earlier post, someone mentioned using 5grs. of Bullseye with a 200 or 230 grain cast bullet. Good advice, and that's plenty for anything a .45 ACP would be used for.

  11. #31
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    Pontificating seems to be flourishing in this thread too. We all do it. RIGHT?

  12. #32
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    With the giant amount of variation in chambers, shells, and barrels, it doesn't surprise me that a load he worked up in his gun wasn't safe in somebody else's. Especially with a military left-over with a fat chamber.

    Run the same load in a gun with a tight target chamber and you're asking for trouble.

    I have some Russian Government 7.62x54R national match target ammo that will blow primers and leave you pounding the bolt open when shot in a late model Finn M39... And that's nominally an official government load that was pressure tested.

    The standards were different back in the '60's. Not everybody was responsible... Look at the stuff Elmer Keith and PO Ackley did... Those guys got young men all wound up to blow up guns.

  13. #33
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    The Cooper load of 7.5/Uniq./200 SWC was not a misprint, for I read it several times back in the day in articles written by him. I tried it once in the mid60s in my 1911A1 Rem-Rand. On about the fifth round the firing pin stop fell out and the firing pin and spring came shooting out. I crawled around in the West Texas dirt and found all the parts, cleaned them and put the pistol back together. There was no damage done, but I did not shoot any more of those Cooper Loads.

    Anyone that would present himself as "The Gunners Guru" is to much for me to swallow.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45_Colt View Post
    Interesting way to look at it. He does have a point.

    45_Colt
    What happens if the round you really, really need is just after the one that kills the gun?
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    The Cooper load of 7.5/Uniq./200 SWC was not a misprint, for I read it several times back in the day in articles written by him. I tried it once in the mid60s in my 1911A1 Rem-Rand. On about the fifth round the firing pin stop fell out and the firing pin and spring came shooting out. I crawled around in the West Texas dirt and found all the parts, cleaned them and put the pistol back together. There was no damage done, but I did not shoot any more of those Cooper Loads.

    Anyone that would present himself as "The Gunners Guru" is to much for me to swallow.
    If the load was correct I'd say there was something wrong with your m1911 [probably a weak firing pin spring that didn't function properly under the increased slide velocity. It is correct firing pin spring tension that drives the firing pin back into the firing pin stop holding it in place as the hammer is pivoted off it during slide movement to the rear. If the spring is defective the firing pin most often fails to hold the stop in pace and it falls out with the firing pin then falling out also.

    A defect of the handgun, not Cooper's load.

    I have fired many, many, perhaps thousands of Cooper's 7.5 gr Unique under a 200 gr bullet (both jacketed and cast) over the years through numerous M1911s w/o a single mishap.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  16. #36
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    The 1911 is a very old design and the older GI guns tend to be soft. That being said the 1911 platform is being used for 10MM Auto, 45 Super and 460 Rowland. As pointed out above it's the slide velocity that is the issue. That can be controlled by various methods.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Adams View Post
    Old Col. Coot especially contradicted himself (typically without explaining why) in his statements in support of his Scout Rifle theory.

    The “making weight” aspect is just one glaring instance. First, it was a “drop-dead” max weight of 6.4lbs. Then it became a max weight of 6.9lbs. The, still later, he was okay with a max weight of 7.7lbs.

    Anything else was relegated to “pseudo-Scout” status.

    Toward the end, he would still hold court and pontificate, at least when prompted by the resident sycophants, but occasionally could be found seated at a table snoring hard and drooling in his oatmeal.

    Much of what he wrote, including his early books, is worth reading.

    A lot of what he wrote later, isn’t.
    Theories, ideas and concepts most often evolve with changes, modification, additions and deletions often occurring. So, it was with the "scout rifle" concept. I was there back when Cooper first started writing about it. I was intrigued so i paid close attention over the years. I even began building and using my own "scout" rifles. Over numerous years Cooper discussed numerous concepts and changes.
    He called for a scout rifle symposium to be held to set down the criteria for a scout rifle. I did not agree with all of the criteria and, based on later Cooper comments, I don't think he did either. My own disagreements were based on my own experience with scout rifles. I never agreed that the caliber must be 308W/7.62, that there should be a specific max weight or on the short barrel length. I also felt the Cing sling and integral bipod were more related to competition shooting instead of practical field shooting.

    Cooper gave a lot to practical shooting, not only with handguns but rifles also. He did not develop all the techniques he espoused but he did recognize what worked and put them in print and at "court" for us sycophants to learn from. He should be remembered for that. All of the old time writers had, and still have, their fans and their detractors. That could be deemed to mean "good points and bad points". Doesn't mean most were not, at least, enjoyable to read and probably help lead us down the road to where we are in this shooting sport.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  18. #38
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    When all else fails, look up the data. My Lyman #46 (oldest I have) and #50 show max loads of 7.5gr of Unique for 200gr SWC, and 7.3gr for a 225gr. Old coot or not, it doesn't appear that he was off his rocker.
    Most people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so. -B. Russell

  19. #39
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    I was intrigued by what Cooper wrote about a scout rifle. As I hunted more, I appreciated his idea. It sounded a lot like a modern take on a lever action. A quick handling, light gun for the field, except still useful out past 200 yards. I can also appreciate where it fell off the rails and died.

    The thing is - most hunting consists of a lot of gun carrying and very little shooting. Three rounds is either an exceptionally good hunt, or a very bad one. Also, most hunting "back east" is done pretty close up, with shots seldom seen past 100 yards. And it rains all winter. As a result, a super light, stainless steel rifle with a low power, long eye relief scope is perfect.

    On the bench, that same rifle is a bruiser, and that whippy barrel means it gives up a lot on target accuracy.

    Cartridge wise, I think his choice of 308 was a compromise as well. Unfortunately, there's nothing 30 caliber, common, and rimless between a 308 and a 7.62x39. I'd love to see something short and stubby, maybe around 223 length, based on a shortened 308, that shot a 160gr pointy hunting bullet around 30-30 velocities, but it doesn't exist. The 7.62x39 would be a lot better choice if not hampered by the roomy military chamber and 0.312" groove diameter.

    Older 30-30 bolt actions do well reloaded with pointy bullets... But then there's the problem of no current production factory bolt action 30-30's or pointy nose factory loads...

    At least with the 308, there's a wide selection of quality factory ammunition, as well as mil-surp if you can find it. So, I get it. Compromises had to be made to get the thing to market. To my eyes, the Steyr was expensive and ugly. That's what happens when you bring ideas into real life.

    I settled on my own "optimum" for my take on a scout rifle. A CZ527 carbine length in 7.62x39 with a super light fixed 4x scope. Handloaded with a 160gr Sierra hunting bullet running right at 2,000 FPS. It's light and easy to haul around, and reliably shoots my load into 1 1/2" at 100 yards. If you prefer factory loads, Hornady and Fiocchi both do well. It has no issue taking deer reliably.

  20. #40
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    In many ways, the Scout rifle concept was a practical, real-life update on the “all-around rifle” concept that had been a recurring chimera in the gun magazines a generation earlier.

    This all-around rifle would come to shoulder and eye like a Purdey shotgun for those snapshots on “jumped” deer in the woods, but settle down in the sling or on the backpack for those 400-yard shots at bighorn sheep. It could be carried over mountains all day without fatigue and yet be good for X-ring target accuracy without the shots “walking” or the zero changing while a hundred sighting and record shots were fired. It would clobber a charging pachyderm or brown bear at powder-burn ranges, and be good for head shots on woodchucks way, way out there. It would shoot flat as a stretched string to any distance, but have minuscule recoil and blast so a boy or woman could shoot it with no problems.

    No doubt, it would be eminently affordable when new, and with “honest wear,” appreciate 16-2/3rds percent a year on the collector’s market, too.

    After a (long) while, people got tired of looking for this phantasm, and the main articles and questions in the “Ask The Experts” columns dwindled and vanished.

    Cooper was after a “General Purpose” rifle, one that would do as many of the requirements listed adequately well. It would be primarily for hunting or military use by one person (the ”scout”), out hunting, sniping or intelligence gathering by himself, who might run into anything at any distance or level of movement. It would be effective on a live target up to several hundred pounds weight, or could disable a light vehicle, out to 400 yards or so. Ammunition would be available anywhere, off the shelf. Cooper’s military and hunting background influenced his settling on the ubiquitous .308, a cartridge that could be fired in a light rifle with a minimum of fatigue, and would be reasonably effective in the hands of a good shot. Loading should be quick and easy, from top or bottom.

    Since it would be carried much and shot little, weight needed to be minimal, but any appurtenances that would assist in accurate shooting, without increasing the weight, were desirable; hence the Ching sling, the bipod, adjustable spacers and cheekrests. Ergonomics were all-important for offhand snapshots in surprise situations or emergencies, something Cooper took very seriously. Few others did, or do now, for that matter. Hence the low-powered, forward-mounted “Scout” telescopic sight. Magnification was adequate for distance shooting, and the image was right there if you had to raise the rifle quickly, shoot and hit.

    Again, the whole package was designed to be as effective as possible, while covering all the requirements. It did no one thing superlatively well. The gun writers all seemed to be terminally unclear on the concept when they reviewed the commercial offerings. They set the rifle down on sandbags, and didn’t like the scope’s low power or position. Accuracy was humdrum; maybe a couple inches at 100 yards, tsk, tsk. (Even by then, factory guns frequently shot under a MOA, so this was “bad.”) It looked weird (a lot of really ergonomic stuff does). And so on. Meanwhile, Cooper was letting people taking courses at his range fire his models and the commercial offerings, and most were able to hit reasonable targets out to distance, and knock them down, and some could hit thrown clay pigeons with snapshots.

    The concept failed to the extent that it wasn’t properly understood, and, of course, that few people only want one rifle that does most things acceptably well. We want safes full of specialty stuff, stuff that looks cool, and stuff to play with. Still, I think Cooper’s was an honest and laudable effort; something nobody else was even considering.
    Last edited by Bent Ramrod; 03-22-2022 at 11:30 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check