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Thread: Jeff Cooper 45 Auto Load

  1. #81
    Boolit Master
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    When I do something stupid and hurt myself, I usually don’t tell anybody.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Adams View Post
    Which is hard to do anyway with over-pressured handloads likely to crack frames, bust brass, and shorten spring life.
    Larry has certainly beat this horse to death and proven the load is not over pressured nor is it a +p rating.

    I have personally loaded and fired from a distance of 7,15,25,50, and 100 yards with great accuracy.

    I fired them from a springfield 1911 and tisas 1911service special each with 18.5 pound recoil springs.

    It's like people's wrong opinions keep getting repeated in order to drown out the facts..... you can change that

  3. #83
    Boolit Bub kopcicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post

    Cooper's recommendations often changed as newer developments came. If he were alive today I'm quite sure he would recommend the current reliable expanding HPs. He might not even look so askance at the 9mm......
    Really? Do you remember his name for the Browning P35? The Browning Half Power...
    Last edited by kopcicle; 06-08-2023 at 11:48 PM. Reason: moronic typist

  4. #84
    Boolit Master
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    Please don’t let facts get in the way of of ignorance on display.
    Thank you Larry Gibson for the pressure data again…….
    I fail to understand the backstabbing of Colonel Cooper. Jealousy perhaps? He started the technique of the modern pistol and his teachings are still relevant. I suppose it’s the nature of the Internet to act out in ignorance and to be an expert in your own mind. Have any of you detractors of Col Cooper read his books???? And then applied these principles to law enforcement or general life?

  5. #85
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Jeff Cooper was always learning, open to new methods/techniques that worked and new products that also worked. Again, I would bet that were he alive today he would have a different outlook on HP bullet performance.....even in the 9mm.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  6. #86
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    On other forums some have called Cooper a racist and have criticized his social theory comments. Others seem not to understand that Cooper based his criticism on the 9mm's failure with fmj ammo and jhp ammo that performed poorly. Cooper was a learned person and well read historian who was born over 100 years ago. Certainly his world view does not align with the current one--whatever that is. He had a following and wrote articles and books directed to them.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Jeff Cooper was always learning, open to new methods/techniques that worked and new products that also worked. Again, I would bet that were he alive today he would have a different outlook on HP bullet performance.....even in the 9mm.
    That's only an assumption Larry. I feel the reason the 9mm is so popular is that it's small enough to hold a large capacity magazine for spray n pray, the gun is generally smaller, the ammo is cheaper, and the recoil is mild enough for all the wokie's in police department and military. Military rifle calibers have gotten smaller, along with the military handgun. We're just about back to where military center fire calibers started at. I'm really shock that none of the major powers haven't tried the 6mm's and the 6.5's again. Cooper and Stoner were the last of the real soldier he-men. They both liked the full power 30 caliber and large bore handguns. So I can't really see Cooper saying anything good about the plastic Glocks and so many other plastic guns.

  8. #88
    Boolit Bub kopcicle's Avatar
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    I'm not going to go full on fudd here.
    However, I will state that 9mm may not expand and 45 never gets smaller.
    Add to this that .40 is only marginally larger in a double stack magazine but a significantly different recoil impulse than either 9mm or 45 and you have a mess to unravel.

    Granted 9mm has come a long way in projectile as well as delivery method.
    Call me a dinosaur but I tend to lump .40 in with .41AE and wonder why. I still wouldn't want to get hit with one. I also have trouble getting consistent hits especially with compact pistols where I don't have this issue in 9mm or 45.

    As much as 9mm has progressed so has 45.

    Jeff Cooper was a dichotomy of staid pragmatism and progressive insight.
    I would find it odd if he indeed did not take notice of advances in 9mm terminal ballistics.
    However if you spoke with him even once you know he had a unique ability to laugh at himself.
    If he were to call the Browning a "Half-Power" today I'm sure you would see the characteristic uptick in the corner of the eye and maybe even the wry smile he was well known for.

    We are fortunate to have had Colonel Jeff Cooper's experience and voice available for decades.
    There are few like him now and were few like him then.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcicle View Post
    I'm not going to go full on fudd here.
    However, I will state that 9mm may not expand and 45 never gets smaller.
    Add to this that .40 is only marginally larger in a double stack magazine but a significantly different recoil impulse than either 9mm or 45 and you have a mess to unravel.

    Granted 9mm has come a long way in projectile as well as delivery method.
    Call me a dinosaur but I tend to lump .40 in with .41AE and wonder why. I still wouldn't want to get hit with one. I also have trouble getting consistent hits especially with compact pistols where I don't have this issue in 9mm or 45.

    As much as 9mm has progressed so has 45.

    Jeff Cooper was a dichotomy of staid pragmatism and progressive insight.
    I would find it odd if he indeed did not take notice of advances in 9mm terminal ballistics.
    However if you spoke with him even once you know he had a unique ability to laugh at himself.
    If he were to call the Browning a "Half-Power" today I'm sure you would see the characteristic uptick in the corner of the eye and maybe even the wry smile he was well known for.

    We are fortunate to have had Colonel Jeff Cooper's experience and voice available for decades.
    There are few like him now and were few like him then.
    I like many decades ago when he had a handgun questions and answers column in a popular gun rag and someone wrote in and asked him what would be a better defense round, a 22 mag hollowpoint or a 38 Special roundnose. Cooper said if he answers it the way he wants that he would get a lot of hate mail. So he asked himself a question. Which would he rather be shot with, a 22 mag hollowpoint or a 38 Special roundnose. He said the 38 Special roundnose.

  10. #90
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    I've been a fan of Jeff Cooper since I acquired his little 75˘ book on sports cars. I was below driving age then and I'm 80 now. I've enjoyed all 5 pages of this thread and have managed it without any nasty feelings about some of the comments.

    I've been a fan of the 1911 in .45ACP for about half my life and the fact that Col. Cooper recommended it only reinforced my opinion of him and the gun/cartridge.
    John
    W.TN

  11. #91
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    I know you’re right.
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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by TD1886 View Post
    That's only an assumption Larry. I feel the reason the 9mm is so popular is that it's small enough to hold a large capacity magazine for spray n pray, the gun is generally smaller, the ammo is cheaper, and the recoil is mild enough for all the wokie's in police department and military. Military rifle calibers have gotten smaller, along with the military handgun. We're just about back to where military center fire calibers started at. I'm really shock that none of the major powers haven't tried the 6mm's and the 6.5's again. Cooper and Stoner were the last of the real soldier he-men. They both liked the full power 30 caliber and large bore handguns. So I can't really see Cooper saying anything good about the plastic Glocks and so many other plastic guns.
    My "assumption" was centered on the performance capabilities of JHP pistol bullets today vs in Coopers day and as to what his opinion may have been on them today. It was not presumptive at all regarding the 9mm in FMJ form nor its military use.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    My "assumption" was centered on the performance capabilities of JHP pistol bullets today vs in Coopers day and as to what his opinion may have been on them today. It was not presumptive at all regarding the 9mm in FMJ form nor its military use.
    I figured that Larry. The 45acp has made just as many bullet advancements as any other cartridge today. You read the accuracy of those guns, both rifles and handguns (mostly the rifles though) it wasn't so good. That's because the bullets weren't so good. We own many of those firearms today and with modern ammo they are pretty darn good.

  14. #94
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    Yes, with good bullets the older "obsolete" (many really aren't) guns shoot, indeed, pretty darn good.

    I own five 45 ACPs (had 6 but gave one to a SIL) and only one 9mm if that says anything.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Yes, with good bullets the older "obsolete" (many really aren't) guns shoot, indeed, pretty darn good.

    I own five 45 ACPs (had 6 but gave one to a SIL) and only one 9mm if that says anything.
    Most my 1911's are 45acp, got one in 9mm and one in 38 Super. I also have one in 10mm and 38/45. I have a Belgium Browning HP and they are indeed a fine pistol. Too bad Browning didn't scale it up for the 45acp. I also have 9mm Glock and Luger P08.

  16. #96
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    My 9mm is a CZ 75. Guess who said it was the best of the 9mms? I agree and really haven't seen any newer "wonder nine" that is any better for me.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    My 9mm is a CZ 75. Guess who said it was the best of the 9mms? I agree and really haven't seen any newer "wonder nine" that is any better for me.
    Ahhhh, the same guy that modeled the Bren Ten after one!!!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check