That looks very dry and crusty Compared to what I get. It should be soft and grease like.
I would try mixing up some Emmerts improved and try it.
Emmerts improved
40% beeswax
50% unsalted crisco (vegtable shortening)
5% lanolin
5% canola or olive oil
I usually mix this in 2 lb batches
I also add 2 small drops of murphies oil soap, it helps to blend the ingredients
If you want to distract everyone on the range substitute rendered bacon grease for the crisco lol
This makes three of us on the lube thing
mine is real simple -------Beeswax and neatsfoot oil 50/50 for summer 40/60 for winter, or some variation of that theme, just so its firm enough to stay put but greasy enough to do the job - you want to be able to smear it in the lube grooves with your finger and have it stay there.
Something no one’s mentioned, but have you checked the trim length of your brass. Have you determined if it’s the bullet or brass is bumping into the fouling and preventing chambering? Not saying it’s the reason, but a possible contributor, along with the lube issue mentioned many times previously.
Sounds like we may be getting somewhere. I just picked up another kg of beeswax to start fresh. What I have left all has various quantities of Vaseline and Canola oil.
I already have Neatsfoot oil so I'll try a bit with that and also Emmerts as suggested.
Brass length has been checked and is correct.
I do appreciate everyone's input. Hopefully I will get the chance to fire a few this weekend and will let you know what happens.
Old Dead Guys Lube = 45% mutton tallow----45% beeswax-----10% pure lanolin
Wipe between shoots. The National Champions do. And quit chasing your tail on bullet lube.
The big Guns are in Phoenix this next 7 days shooting BPTR in hot dry Arizona. Trust me they don’t worry about lube they watch the conditions and wipe between shoots.
The amount of bandwidth wasted here on this topic is hysterical.
Kenny Wasserburger
so just because you is one of "the big guns" you get to insult the little blokes ? thanks a bunchOriginally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger
wipe between shots is boring
bandwidth is no more wasted on this than on any other subject
With all due respect, Kenny is making a point, albeit in his usual crusty-but-lovable manner.
Unless I zoned out in the course of reading this thread and missed it, nowhere in this screed is any mention of anything the OP actually did about the black powder fouling, except notice it and its bad effect on chambering the next round.
Silhouette, lube only goes as far as mixing with the fouling to form a sort of soap. Moisture needs to be added then, to soften the soapy material. Get a blow tube and try up to 8 full breaths down the barrel. Somewhere in the course of this exercise, a dry patch pushed through the bore will come out looking like it’s covered with black grease. (If you still see those black splinters and fibers, you’re not there yet.). When that point is reached, your next round will chamber. If you extract it, it should show a slight rifling imprint and a ring of black grease, which doesn’t impede chambering, but is still very much there, all the way to the muzzle.
Usually, satisfactory shooting can be done with blowtubing, although it’s still possible to “foul out” if the humidity is too low, the powder is not to the barrel’s liking or the charge is too heavy or otherwise wrongly loaded. But I do it if I’m using grease groove boolits, because it’s easier than wiping. All the “Big Guns” down here at the TRC (and they are Big; in any company) use grease groove boolits and wipe between shots. If I have to wipe, I use paper patch boolits, because it’s Period and Cool.
Early on, I tried to get away with shooting black powder like I was shooting smokeless, even to the extent of trying to make a water-in-oil emulsion lube. The oil matrix would keep the water droplets dispersed, so they wouldn’t get the powder wet, the vegetable oil and beeswax emulsion would soften the fouling like other BP lubes do, and the alkaline combustion products would break the emulsion, free the water, soften the soapy mess to a moist grease, and allow an arbitrary number of shots without any further management until it was time to clean up at the end.
As COL Patterson would say, “in point of fact, it didn’t work, but it was a very good idea, nonetheless.”
Kenny has never been one to mince words. He is a guy worth paying attention to. Having shot with him on a few occasions I can tell you that he is a really good guy who has helped a lot of people get better at shooting these rifles.
Wiping is really what most of us need to be doing. Some get by with a blow tube on silhouettes and shoot master class scores, but in the dry places, and especially at long range, almost no one does anything but wipe. Sometimes as much as 5 damp patches between shots. Good bore pigs/wipers (I've only used the BACO ones ) can also work very very well.
The only thing I'd suggest is for people to try their favorite fouling management routine and shoot 15 rounds over a chronograph and compare the ES/SD with 15 rounds shot while wiping 3 damp patches. It's an eye opener. With that said, some of the best ES/SD numbers I've ever seen have been from Dan Theodore's experiments while blow tubing. But he developed his routine ( and lube ) over a chronograph.
Chris.
Watching YouTube videos may have given me the wrong impression. I've seen a few blokes fire multiple shots without wiping or blowing, which makes me wonder why I can't do the same and that perhaps I'm doing something wrong.
I mixed up some more lube as recommended, and yesterday afternoon I had a couple of shots at home. The following round could not quite be fully seated in but has gone a long way compared to my first attempts at the beginning of this thread.
Putting mouth to breech and a couple of blows, it went in no problem. The patch came out greasy instead of crusty as Country Gent said.
I'm pretty happy with that and now I think I'll just load up and enjoy shooting.
To some this this thread might seem like a hysterical waste of bandwidth, but for the beginner I am, it's a wealth of information and a fix for my problem. After all, isn't that what forums are all about?
Thanks for everyone's contributions.
You can definitely make ammo where you can shoot many rounds in a row without fouling control, you just will have to give up some accuracy.
I used to have a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt and could shoot black powder in it all day long without fouling control. But it was just for plinking. They key was to seat the bullet deep enough in the case so that it wasn't too close to the rifling. Fouling will build up to a point, but the bullets will push it out enough to keep shooting. Just not with the max possible accuracy.
A friend shoots an original Trapdoor with no fouling control in matches. It's rifling seems to be better than modern barrels for not holding on to fouling. It shoots pretty well, but again, not quite as accurate as a modern BPCR with fouling control.
Several years ago Lee Shaver's magazine, The Single Shot Exchange, published a reprint of an old article and a letter on "shooting dirty". The original article was from the late 1800's so in the "original black powder days". One person was adamant that "shooting dirty" was completely possible, and the other guy was equally adamant that it couldn't be done. It reminded me of all of the threads I've read here over the years. Even the people from the old days didn't agree
Chris.
If I remember correctly it was Winchester that had an old ad/article about firing an 1873 with blackpowder for a 30 shot group under 4” at 100yards shots without cleaning/blow tube. I did some searching and I can not find it. If someone has the link please post it.
Match winning accuracy fouling control and hunting or self-defense/military fouling control are somewhat different.
Posts #9 & #17 are very interesting. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...y-then-and-now
Last edited by M-Tecs; 03-24-2022 at 08:37 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Some more good info here https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...g+black+powder
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
One item no one has mentioned is the use of cartridge seating tools. They are common with Sharps and Hi Wall shooters using BP.
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7915
https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewt...d83605fe843728
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Accuracy is never boring, mediocre shooting is.
World record groups are definitely not boring nor National Championships.
Some do, others set around blow gas. And get po when someone points out the obvious.
I now know what camp you set in.
I despise those that lack the testicular mass to use their real name, zero respect for those individuals.
I would rather spend time learning how to read conditions, then screw about with lube.
Kenny Wasserburger
Ps Indian feller I wasn’t addressing you, but since I triggered a reply from you, I gave you a personal reply back.
[QUOTE=Bent Ramrod;5378766]With all due respect, Kenny is making a point, albeit in his usual crusty-but-lovable manner.
I am well aware of Kennys credentials in long range and salute that
If this is his normal manner of communicating then my reply should not bother him at all (hand em out ya gonna get some back on occasion)
I dont think apologies are required from either of us at this point.
joe
ps no call to follow up and be a proper a###ole either though
Last edited by indian joe; 03-25-2022 at 12:35 AM.
I've done ten shot strings with ES under 10FPS enough times to convince me that it is workingKenny has never been one to mince words
Wiping is really what most of us need to be doing. Some get by with a blow tube on silhouettes and shoot master class scores, but in the dry places, and especially at long range, almost no one does anything but wipe. Sometimes as much as 5 damp patches between shots. Good bore pigs/wipers (I've only used the BACO ones ) can also work very very well.
The only thing I'd suggest is for people to try their favorite fouling management routine and shoot 15 rounds over a chronograph and compare the ES/SD with 15 rounds shot while wiping 3 damp patches. It's an eye opener. With that said, some of the best ES/SD numbers I've ever seen have been from Dan Theodore's experiments while blow tubing. But he developed his routine ( and lube ) over a chronograph.
Chris.
Never gonna shoot a 1000yard match where we live - 500 - 600 a couple times a year
My goal from the start was to do the very best I can shooting a decent string with a grease boolit and no clean between shots. If thats a problem to someone else I really dont care - I have got it to the point where my load and fouling management leaves my 73 yr old eyes as the limiting factor.
Posted a target (post 22) for all to see - nothing spectacular but not so bad for an old guy with a cowboy gun either. If Kenny wanted to pick that apart he might come to the same conclusion as me - a couple nice little clusters in there telling the story that my non repeatable sight picture has about doubled that group size.
joe
Last edited by indian joe; 03-25-2022 at 12:31 AM.
Joe, that is a fine target for a levergun at 100 with no fouling control. I know what you mean about the sight picture. If the light is good I can shoot apertures as well as I can a low power scope, but in anything less than ideal light I sure like my MVA scopes!
Chris.
thanks!!
M-Tecs,
I remember seeing the add, or the article it was in. Sorry but I don't remember where either. Just wanted to back you up on see it somewhere. (smile)
Dave
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote