Too much fouling?

[Silhouette]

I've just bought a Uberti 1885 High Wall 45-70 and want to try bpcr silhouettes. I've never loaded black powder before and no one else in my club shoots black powder so I only know what I can find online.

I bought some 515gn hardcast boolits and loaded up 3 rounds with 59.5gns of Wano ffg, a cardboard wad from a cereal box and lubed the projectiles with 50/50 beeswax and petroleum jelly.
Seating depth was .725" and compression was roughly .2"

The 3 shots gave me a 2 1/2" group at 100yds which I thought was reasonable for my first group.
I didn't chronograph so have no idea of velocity or consistency.

But here is my problem;
I had to run a patch through after every shot or else the next the next round wouldn't chamber. The patch came out incredibly dirty and the fouling seemed a bit "fibrous".
Is this normal?
What is the cause of this and how do I fix it?

[Don McDowell]

You probably need more powder, and use a better lube. If you don't have access to a good blackpowder lube try adding an oz or so of refined jojoba oil to your lube mix.
Running a patch thru between shots is a good plan to maintain accuracy. Use a nylon brush on a rod with a barely damp flannel patch.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I wipe after every shot with the old favourite "moose milk", no you don't have to run down a cow moose, mix 1 part soluble machine oil with 4 parts water. I have adopted the old fashioned shooting 'wet' that is after every shot wipe with a damp patch then do not wipe dry.

Shooting wet keeps the fouling soft and coats the bore. This group at 100yds with 545gn boolit and 67gn of Wano 2FG.

[Silhouette]

Thanks for the replies. I understand the advantages of patching between shots, but I still don't understand though why I can't chamber a round without running a patch through first.

[indian joe]

I've just bought a Uberti 1885 High Wall 45-70 and want to try bpcr silhouettes. I've never loaded black powder before and no one else in my club shoots black powder so I only know what I can find online.

I bought some 515gn hardcast boolits and loaded up 3 rounds with 59.5gns of Wano ffg, a cardboard wad from a cereal box and lubed the projectiles with 50/50 beeswax and petroleum jelly.
Seating depth was .725" and compression was roughly .2"

The 3 shots gave me a 2 1/2" group at 100yds which I thought was reasonable for my first group.
I didn't chronograph so have no idea of velocity or consistency.

But here is my problem;
I had to run a patch through after every shot or else the next the next round wouldn't chamber. The patch came out incredibly dirty and the fouling seemed a bit "fibrous".
Is this normal?
What is the cause of this and how do I fix it?

wano is not the cleanest burning powder ever made but its what we can get
some things to try
1) Don says more powder --if you can hang that boolit right out kissing the lands - maybe get 65 grains - maybe 67 - maybe not ?
2) Try a HDPE wad instead of the light card (can cut these out of the flat part of a disposable 10 litre water jug from woolies - I think cut neat to the bore .460 these can work as a crud scraper) - maybe not - 2 1/2" at 100 yards is more than reasonable for a first BP group
3) yes to the better lube too. try substitute something vegetable or animal for the vaseline and keep the mix as soft as is practical to use - you might get away with a little less beeswax.
4) are you using a drop tube to load the powder?

To eliminate clean between shots its imperative that the boolit carries enough lube to get the job done - there are many that dont and some that do - CBE 460-535PB does - their 458-550 PB does not (at my place anyway)

[indian joe]

I've just bought a Uberti 1885 High Wall 45-70 and want to try bpcr silhouettes. I've never loaded black powder before and no one else in my club shoots black powder so I only know what I can find online.

I bought some 515gn hardcast boolits and loaded up 3 rounds with 59.5gns of Wano ffg, a cardboard wad from a cereal box and lubed the projectiles with 50/50 beeswax and petroleum jelly.
Seating depth was .725" and compression was roughly .2"

The 3 shots gave me a 2 1/2" group at 100yds which I thought was reasonable for my first group.
I didn't chronograph so have no idea of velocity or consistency.

But here is my problem;
I had to run a patch through after every shot or else the next the next round wouldn't chamber. The patch came out incredibly dirty and the fouling seemed a bit "fibrous".
Is this normal?
What is the cause of this and how do I fix it?

Hardcast boolits sized .458 ? excess clearance up front making blowby crud in the chamber ? Uberti sposed to be using Pedersoli barrels ?- if yes then they like fat boolits - .460 is no problem and soften the alloy a bit .462 out of the mold works ok (at my place - Uberti 1876) I dont get any chambering problems with that combo and have very minimal neck to chamber clearance (about zero to a half thou) . Shooting similar load in a Italian sharps without incident but size it to .460 (barrel dimensions are a tad tighter) both these guns will shoot an uncleaned string of ten into a similar size group to yours - on a good day I might do a touch better - but its operator dependent .

[reloader4410]

winchester brass thinner, lube cookie, slug bore, soft bullet, will slug up better, felt wad , any one or all may help, happy trails

[Castaway]

I’ve heard Australia has a few sheep. See if you can get some mutton tallow and mix it with canning paraffin and bees wax, by weight at 2:2:1 proportions for a concoction known as Gato Feo #1 lube, a resurrected turn of the century Winchester lube and cited in a 1940’s NRA article. You’ll still have a lot of fouling but it should be “goopy” and wipe out easily. Will also clean easily when done shooting. Not all big bullets are equal, if the lube doesn’t solve the hard fouling issue, another bullet with more generous lube grooves may be in order. As mentioned previously, a softer bullet may be in order. If you can’t get a bullet with bigger grooves, and the lube above still doesn’t carry to the end of the barrel, as mentioned above, a lube cookie or lube saturated wool wad (back to those sheep) may get better results.

[Don McDowell]

If you have to run a lube cookie under a grease groove bullet, you need a different bullet with better lube grooves on it.

[country gent]

Sometimes adding compression will "clean up" a powders burn. Working up in charge weight and adding compression sometimes helps, and as has been said a good lube that keeps fouling soft. I use emmerts improved (beeswax, crisco, canloa oil and lanolin). Sometimes a blow tube adds enough moisture to help. Another thing that may help is to anneal your brass. Is your brass very dirty after firing? It my not be sealing the chamber letting fouling get back into the chamber.

[ascast]

i would lose the petroleum jelly. Instead mix 50'/50 beeswax and Crisco shorting (low sodium), more wax if hot. Or get some SPG or other recommended lube. Wet shooting works well. You can just use a mouthfull of water and straw to full the chamber/bore/ Keep your muzzle down. I would also go fatter softer bullet, more grooves, maybe a lube cookie under, with compression. Hopefully you can find some guys local to maybe get bullets to try. comment regarding brass are good thoughts as well. good luck

[GregLaROCHE]

The other day I shot twenty rounds of BP through my 47/70. No problems charging successive rounds. I was only plinking, so I can’t confirm accuracy, but I was using a grease cookie with lamb grease, bees wax, lanolin and a touch of castor oil.

[Gunlaker]

Depending on your bullet's nose shape this can be completely normal. A blow tube can solve it if you live in a place where the humidity is not too low. Otherwise you'll need to run at least 2 patches between shots. All of my loads will do the same as yours pretty much, nd I use Swiss powder, but wipe between shots.

It depends on exactly what you are trying to do with your rifle ( plinking, hunting, or extracting max accuracy ). For max accuracy, skip the lube cookie. Use a good lube. I don't know what commercial bp lubes are availalble in Australia, but here in Canada, I order DGL from America. It's better than any home made stuff I've messed with, and cheap. I buy 2 lbs and pan lube with it. It'll last a long time. If you can't get commercial lube, then find a recipie that uses lanolin.

Since you have a chronograph you should use it to help understand how fouling control affects accuracy at longer ranges. Try a blow tube while shooting over the chronograph, then try a set while wiping one patch between shots, then try two patches, and then three. You'll see that certain techniques will make the velocities a little higher and more consistent. This is just because the bullet isn't pushing so much crud down the bore each shot. Fouling management is one of the most important parts of getting these guns to shoot well. First is bullet fit, then fouling management, then powder charge tuning.

Chris.

[Silhouette]

Gentlemen, thank you for all the good advice.
I will keep experimenting.
I intend to buy a mold and cast my own, as I already cast for a couple of other guns. These ones were just there on the shelf while I was buying the rifle.
I'm going to soften the lube and increase the charge by a grain at a time. I will also try a different wad.

The end result I am looking for is a load that will bring down a 500m ram with reasonable accuracy.

Cheers.

[country gent]

I would recomend several bullets some mundane and a "standard" it a little more racy. 1st is the lyman style 510 grn govt bullet. A round nose that seems to work well. Cast in the .459-.460 range from 20-1 it seldom leaves a ram standing. 2nd is the 535 grn postell style bullet a good all around bullet. y 3rd bullet I have had excellent results with is From Bernie Rowles at Old West moulds it is the 550 grn silhouette bullet. A little more recoil but they really kick the rams around.

[indian joe]

If you have to run a lube cookie under a grease groove bullet, you need a different bullet with better lube grooves on it.

yes!
(told him that already but hope a more authoritive source might reinforce the message)

I think I would rather clean between shots than mess around with lube cookies - will do about anything I can to avoid the necessity for either, there are good molds out there !

[indian joe]

I would recomend several bullets some mundane and a "standard" it a little more racy. 1st is the lyman style 510 grn govt bullet. A round nose that seems to work well. Cast in the .459-.460 range from 20-1 it seldom leaves a ram standing. 2nd is the 535 grn postell style bullet a good all around bullet. y 3rd bullet I have had excellent results with is From Bernie Rowles at Old West moulds it is the 550 grn silhouette bullet. A little more recoil but they really kick the rams around.

The CBE 460-535 PB is (near as I can figure) their copy of the Postell that Country Gent recommends at no 2 - it has good lube carrying without being over done - shoots well -- the CBE postell (458-550 PB) is a different animal I have been there done that twice and could not get it to shoot unless I cleaned between shots - doesnt look a lot different but lube grooves are much smaller. $120 our money and cheap freight, its the best you will do for your money.

[Silhouette]

The CBE 460-535 PB is (near as I can figure) their copy of the Postell that Country Gent recommends at no 2 - it has good lube carrying without being over done - shoots well -- the CBE postell (458-550 PB) is a different animal I have been there done that twice and could not get it to shoot unless I cleaned between shots - doesnt look a lot different but lube grooves are much smaller. $120 our money and cheap freight, its the best you will do for your money.

The only thing that concerns me is that I've read the 20" twist in the Ubertis doesn't stabilise bullets much heavier than 500gns.
But I know David from CBE and he might be able to shorten it to reduce the weight.

Will keep you all posted with results.

[country gent]

All of my 45 caliber rifles are 1-18 twist so yes 1-20 may not stabilize them.

[Don McDowell]

The only thing that concerns me is that I've read the 20" twist in the Ubertis doesn't stabilise bullets much heavier than 500gns.
But I know David from CBE and he might be able to shorten it to reduce the weight.

Will keep you all posted with results.

The length is the thing to watch, not necessarily the weight.
1-20 twist keeping the bullet length to 1.4 or 1.42 at the max should give reasonable stability, providing you get the powder charge/velocity up to 1200 fps or there about.