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Thread: Beginning in BPCR

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Ah yeah got a notification today in my FB memories. 2008 was the last time. I shot the Quigley Match.

    You sir either got me confused with someone else or…. You’re just a damn lier.

    Kenny Wasserburger

  2. #62
    Boolit Mold
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    I started with a 38-55 and after MUCH experimenting, went to a 40-65. I had a 45-70, but like the 40-65 rifles MUCH better. We have four now and my 13 year old ( a few months ago) tolerates the recoil very well. We have an original Winchester 1885, two c-sharps and a Japanese made 40-65 Winchester with a Browning barrel. They all shoot well. One of the best shooters in texas shoots a Pedersoli with a green mountain barrel. Get a gun and just try the sport.

  3. #63
    Boolit Mold
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    G'day Joe, that sight looks like it's mounted on a Winchester 73.
    Do you shoot matches with it?
    I have much the same set up for LAS.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silhouette View Post
    G'day Joe, that sight looks like it's mounted on a Winchester 73.
    Do you shoot matches with it?
    I have much the same set up for LAS.
    Its on a 1876 Uberti -- 45/75 -
    not shot it in competition yet
    thats a problem - the BPCR silywet crowd has a rule that sez single shots only - the logic is these are the buffalo rifles - well the 76 was used on the bison winchester loaded a 450grain x 90 grain Paper Patch pointy boolit round for it in the early days - have not got to the point of arguing my case yet - spose I could pull the magazine off it and its a single shot?
    was intending to try it in the long range event at Hill End this year but they cancelled the easter shoot (held the ML events at Gunnedah and yet to make a decision on the LR events)

  5. #65
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    I know I’m going to get blasted for this but, 20 or so years ago when I started toying with the idea of BPCR I think I had the perfect solution. Heck I didn’t want to compete nor drive 250 miles to a match, I just wanted something simple, easy, and fun.

    At the time, H&R made the Buffalo classic in 45-70. Single shot, easy to clean, and cheap. I ordered two. After a two year wait I gave up. I didn’t want to shoot BP in any of my Marlins or Winchesters because of the cleanup. At the time I think they listed for around $250, now I see used upwards of $800, just plain too much!

    …….of course, back then SKS carbines we’re….$89.95…..

    I still think, for someone just wanting to shoot to see if they actually enjoyed this sport this is the way to go — maybe a Henry single shot? Just one guys outlook on it..

    Art
    ”Only accurate rifles are interesting”
    ——Townsend Whelen


    In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act
    —- George Orwell

  6. #66
    Boolit Master
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    Try breaking position with the H&R during the prone part which is 75% of the match. Let alone the difficulties of mounting a proper sight. It’s obvious you have never attended a match. It’s a poor choice for such, a few tried it, you never see them in a silhouette match due to the difficulties I mentioned. Have you ever fired on of these with full house BP loads. Recoil is most unpleasant due to the very light weight, a 40 shot match with sighters approaching 60 shots in a day.

    What you think is a sound solution isn’t at all, if you had tried it just once you would definitely rethink your stance.

    KW

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazman1602 View Post
    I know I’m going to get blasted for this but, 20 or so years ago when I started toying with the idea of BPCR I think I had the perfect solution. Heck I didn’t want to compete nor drive 250 miles to a match, I just wanted something simple, easy, and fun.

    At the time, H&R made the Buffalo classic in 45-70. Single shot, easy to clean, and cheap. I ordered two. After a two year wait I gave up. I didn’t want to shoot BP in any of my Marlins or Winchesters because of the cleanup. At the time I think they listed for around $250, now I see used upwards of $800, just plain too much!

    …….of course, back then SKS carbines we’re….$89.95…..

    I still think, for someone just wanting to shoot to see if they actually enjoyed this sport this is the way to go — maybe a Henry single shot? Just one guys outlook on it..

    Art
    I've done much the same but more recently. I didn't want to spend too much not knowing if I am going to stick with it.
    I bought a second hand Uberti High Wall. It came with a Marbles tang sight which won't get me even remotely close to 500m.
    I have put that project on hold for now due to a number of reasons, 1 of which is there is zero interest from any other club members to try bpcr silhouettes.
    When I can justify a vernier tang sight and the other blokes see me killing it, hopefully some will want to join in.

  8. #68
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    SHOOTING A SILHOUTTE MATCH IS COUNTING HITS A TARGET MATCH IS COUNTING POINTS AN X RING AT 1000 yds IS 10 " A SILHOUTTE IS FEET> ACCURACERY IS MORE DAMANDING AT A TARGET MATCH> I SPENT ROUGHLY 5 YEARS GETTING MY ROLLING BLOCK 45/70 TO SHOOT THE WAY I WANTED IT TO WILL HOLD THE X RING 8 OUT OF 10 SHOTS AT 1000 yds IF I DO MY PART>>

  9. #69
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLAHUT View Post
    SHOOTING A SILHOUTTE MATCH IS COUNTING HITS A TARGET MATCH IS COUNTING POINTS AN X RING AT 1000 yds IS 10 " A SILHOUTTE IS FEET> ACCURACERY IS MORE DAMANDING AT A TARGET MATCH> I SPENT ROUGHLY 5 YEARS GETTING MY ROLLING BLOCK 45/70 TO SHOOT THE WAY I WANTED IT TO WILL HOLD THE X RING 8 OUT OF 10 SHOTS AT 1000 yds IF I DO MY PART>>
    Wow how many National championships have you won at 1000 yards.

    KW

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger View Post
    Try breaking position with the H&R during the prone part which is 75% of the match. Let alone the difficulties of mounting a proper sight. It’s obvious you have never attended a match. It’s a poor choice for such, a few tried it, you never see them in a silhouette match due to the difficulties I mentioned. Have you ever fired on of these with full house BP loads. Recoil is most unpleasant due to the very light weight, a 40 shot match with sighters approaching 60 shots in a day.

    What you think is a sound solution isn’t at all, if you had tried it just once you would definitely rethink your stance.

    KW
    Oh boy Kenny, if you read my post it was about beginning in BPCR and you’re right - shoot I’ve never even seen a match. I’m talking about someone who is just getting interested in BPCR — loading black, grease cookies, and the cleanup involved…… not to mention spending many thousands on a decent rifle, firing and testing hundreds of rounds with black, and just having fun in general. So glad you are an expert BPCR shooter, but in order to proliferate the sport, which I would love to see someday, you have got to get inexperienced shooters to actually try the stuff.

    My suggestion, for someone who is interested was to get an inexpensive reasonable setup to see if whoever wanted to try this was to get what I suggested, shoot a few hundred or even a thousand rounds, and find out if it’s really something they want to try out. That might mean a young shooter trying to support a family because if you can’t get young shooters to attempt it at a level that they can afford for a few years, the sport is going to die a slow death.

    You can’t come across as an arrogant know it all putting down others attempts and expect them to want to continue — no offense intended. Not saying handle them with kid gloves either, but there are some darn fine people BPCR might get involved with just a bit of help.

    I’ve read every single book Paul Matthews ever wrote and am going through them taking notes again, but he has never come across harshly to anyone who might want to try this very interesting sport. Hope your winning streak continues and also that a neophyte who’s practiced well hands you a loss someday. Sheesh Kenny….

    Art
    ”Only accurate rifles are interesting”
    ——Townsend Whelen


    In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act
    —- George Orwell

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazman1602 View Post
    I know I’m going to get blasted for this but, 20 or so years ago when I started toying with the idea of BPCR I think I had the perfect solution. Heck I didn’t want to compete nor drive 250 miles to a match, I just wanted something simple, easy, and fun.

    At the time, H&R made the Buffalo classic in 45-70. Single shot, easy to clean, and cheap. I ordered two. After a two year wait I gave up. I didn’t want to shoot BP in any of my Marlins or Winchesters because of the cleanup. At the time I think they listed for around $250, now I see used upwards of $800, just plain too much!

    …….of course, back then SKS carbines we’re….$89.95…..

    I still think, for someone just wanting to shoot to see if they actually enjoyed this sport this is the way to go — maybe a Henry single shot? Just one guys outlook on it..

    Art
    Art
    I started out with a carbine weight sharps (repro) shooting prone at the 600yard - the gun was just 8 pounds neat, 535 grain boolit, lil skinny stock - it were not a fun experience at all - I fed the number info through one of those online recoil calculators that told me the pain was NOT my imagination at all - a couple years ago I made a 2 pound lead buttplate for that gun and laced it on with a leather pad/cover that gave me some extra comb height - now its ten pound, the buttplate area is about doubled and it dont hurt anymore. yeah its unbalanced all to heck but once I get on the line that dont matter. All I am trying to say here is if your friend picks a 45/70 get something with some weight in it (ten pound) life will be a lot more fun.
    The H & R and the Henry single shot are 7 pound plinkers - in 45/70 that is gonna hurt shot prone or benched another good argument for the 38/55 I guess.
    Last edited by indian joe; 07-23-2022 at 04:04 AM.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazman1602 View Post
    Oh boy Kenny, if you read my post it was about beginning in BPCR and you’re right - shoot I’ve never even seen a match. I’m talking about someone who is just getting interested in BPCR — loading black, grease cookies, and the cleanup involved…… not to mention spending many thousands on a decent rifle, firing and testing hundreds of rounds with black, and just having fun in general. So glad you are an expert BPCR shooter, but in order to proliferate the sport, which I would love to see someday, you have got to get inexperienced shooters to actually try the stuff.

    My suggestion, for someone who is interested was to get an inexpensive reasonable setup to see if whoever wanted to try this was to get what I suggested, shoot a few hundred or even a thousand rounds, and find out if it’s really something they want to try out. That might mean a young shooter trying to support a family because if you can’t get young shooters to attempt it at a level that they can afford for a few years, the sport is going to die a slow death.

    You can’t come across as an arrogant know it all putting down others attempts and expect them to want to continue — no offense intended. Not saying handle them with kid gloves either, but there are some darn fine people BPCR might get involved with just a bit of help.

    I’ve read every single book Paul Matthews ever wrote and am going through them taking notes again, but he has never come across harshly to anyone who might want to try this very interesting sport. Hope your winning streak continues and also that a neophyte who’s practiced well hands you a loss someday. Sheesh Kenny….

    Art
    Good lord, you got thin skin, if you thought I was harsh. What you encouraged would send a new shooter away quickly, I been beat plenty of times.

    The set up you encouraged, won’t work for numerous reasons and would definitely discourage anyone from trying again.

    You’re not being helpful at all. As for encouragement to new shooters I do it often at matches, which I actually attend.

    Your post was sort of like. “I have never flown a jet plane, yet read lots of books on the subject, so here is how you do it.” And trust me that guy using the H&R is going to crash and burn based on your logic.

    As for Paul M, nobody in the top shooters of Bpcr use a single thing he espouses in his books. His paper patch book is horrible. The best book on it is Randy Wright’s.

    These days I shoot more 22BPCRA than BP silhouette. Mostly long range and midrange also.

    When I state facts, vrs conjecture I do so to encourage shooters, if that’s harsh, best stick to lawn darts.

    KW

    One other thing: I don’t take criticism from people I would never go to for Advice.
    Last edited by Kenny Wasserburger; 07-23-2022 at 04:35 PM.

  13. #73
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    I’ve seen people shooting Buffalo Classics at the Quigley. They have as much fun as anyone else. A set of good vernier and globe iron sights (which can be transferred to a more expensive rifle if the tyro decides to stick with it) and a shoulder strap recoil pad will provide enough shooting experience for a decision of whether to continue the sport.

    Given the H&Rs are out of print now, unless somebody has one already, I would recommend one of the rebuilt and rebarreled Rolling Blocks, whether original or replica, for starters. They are all over the place used, can sometimes be had at bargain prices, and have more of the look and weight of “the real thing,” which of course, they are. They can be plain or fancy, and still shoot well.

    It is no joke what this sport costs, in money and time. You can buy one of those plastic-and-aluminum “simi-ottos” for less than a barreling or stocking job on one of these BPCRs. Not to mention the time spent casting and loading. It may take more than the availability of a cheap rifle to get somebody started these days. Movies and TV are all cops&robbers and Terran/Alien space battles rather than cowboys&indians and buff runners now, so no intro there.

    I would say, from the relative popularity I’ve seen, that the introduction of a special class (never to share in the BP awards or records) for smokeless and substitute shooters would do more to inveigle new shooters into our camp than any el-cheapo intro rifle models. A lot (a LOT) of people already have the rifles, but don’t want to mess with black powder, mainly because they think it’s too much trouble. If they were to see that other shooters aren’t stressing themselves out with it, some portion of these newbies eventually might be tempted to try it themselves. In the meantime, they can at least swell the ranks on the firing line.

    True, there is a “safety” issue, but only two blowups (one involving injury, and only to the shooter) have occurred in the 30 years the Quigley has been going on. I get worse odds of serious bodily injury driving through Albuquerque and Denver on the way up.

    There’s also the problem that a lot of people are allergic to the very idea of “competition.” They think they’ll disgrace themselves if they don’t win. I don’t know what to do about that; haven’t been able to get friends (who have the guns and even load black powder) out to a silhouette or even a gong shoot yet. All our ace shots (several do well at National Championships) always have the time and courtesy to answer beginners’ questions. I don’t think it’s even agenda driven. They just like to talk about guns and gun stuff with anybody who’s interested.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master
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    After all of this conversation about starting rifles for silhouette, I'd still pick a used Browning BPCR or a used Pedersoli. Buying them used means you'll probably be able to sell them for what you paid if you don't end up liking it. They'll both shoot well enough and can be used in any type of black powder match.

    It is a tricky sport to get people involved in, probably the effort to learn to cast match quality bullets more than the BP cleanup for new people. But that's just the way it is. No shortcuts there.

    Chris.

  15. #75
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    Attending a match is probably the best way to get into it. Even if you don't have the rifle yet. I shot my single shots for several years with BP before I ever went to a match. I still remember the sounds when I drove up for my first silhouette match. Hearing the echoes of the shots rolling around the hills like thunder and hearing the sound of hits on distant steel made a big impression on me. Later I got into BPTR which I like more than silhouette, but it's all fun.

    Chris.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master
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    What semtav said, or alternatively, a Shiloh or C. Sharps or CPA Stevens in the same calibers. I started with a Shiloh. Had to rebarrel it, however.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    so this is homemade - I have not had opportunity to shoot a time event yet (one coming up in August) - cant see good enough to properly line up those little squinchy markings no matter how precisely they are machined - if I tried it would mean shooting glasses off, readers on, adjust sight, change glasses back etc. gonna blow my time away!
    I calibrated the elevation and windage screws so I know the value of each sector marking in MOA on the target - then all I got to do is remember those two numbers (elevation for this rifle and sight is 2.3moa per full turn) - this is simple and I am still trying to figure out why it wont work as well as lines scribed on the staff?
    Since the picture I have added a lock screw to the windage on this sight so we dont get that backlash problem.
    Hadlee eyecup off a parker hale SMLE sight - have another same setup on my sharps - just change the eyecup over
    MVA landed here proly gonna leave hamburger change out of 700bucks - importation permits and several months wait.
    My homemade proly about on par with a Pedersoli - charge my time - proly didnt save anything - but I made it
    Attachment 299000
    I wish I could make a sight like that. I can do a lot of things, but I'm not sure i could do that.
    My interest in this stems from being out at the gun club a few weeks ago, the range was closed on that Sunday morning 'til noon for the "long range shoot". While I waited for those guys to finish, I thought I'd go see what was up.
    Three guys, (young guys), all shooting their rifles. Muzzle brakes, bipods, rests under the butt of their rifles, scopes as big around as my leg, (spotting scope even bigger), shooting mats for their prone position, bags for their rifles, separate ammo bags, "shoot reloads? We buy all our 6.5 Creedmoor ammo."
    They're shooting at 600 yards, so I asked if anyone ever came out and shot a black powder rifle. One of them looked up, laughed, and said "you couldn't hit my pickup at these ranges with that equipment". They laughed, I laughed, they're all good guys. We talked for about an hour before they were finished.
    Well......I don't need to get good enough to win a match, or even come close, I just need to be able to hit a pickup at 600 yards. Or at least close enough to invite them to park their pickups out there.


  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Art
    I started out with a carbine weight sharps (repro) shooting prone at the 600yard - the gun was just 8 pounds neat, 535 grain boolit, lil skinny stock - it were not a fun experience at all - I fed the number info through one of those online recoil calculators that told me the pain was NOT my imagination at all - a couple years ago I made a 2 pound lead buttplate for that gun and laced it on with a leather pad/cover that gave me some extra comb height - now its ten pound, the buttplate area is about doubled and it dont hurt anymore. yeah its unbalanced all to heck but once I get on the line that dont matter. All I am trying to say here is if your friend picks a 45/70 get something with some weight in it (ten pound) life will be a lot more fun.
    The H & R and the Henry single shot are 7 pound plinkers - in 45/70 that is gonna hurt shot prone or benched another good argument for the 38/55 I guess.
    100% agreed! I’ve never had a chance to shoot the H&R but I’d guess it wouldn’t be pain free. The problem for me is that….I have the shortest LOP ever known. Someday I’m gonna die, kids will sell my guns and someone is going to think they got a real sweet deal…..right up until they shoulder it and then they’re going to say “what midget owned that?” Wife used to call me Popeyes when we met….

    I shoot a bunch of 1886’s — the recoil doesn’t bother me but that steel buutplate hurts my bad shoulder sometimes so I use a pad. One of the heaviest I’ve shot is my Uberti 45-70 and it is a baby.

    Only rifle I will not shoot is a Ruger Frontier, predecessor to the Gunsite Scout and it weighs nothing and is in 300WSM. My wife now shoots it, when I said I’d had enough she loaded it up and promptly said “this is my new elk rifle”…….it’s all hers!

    Art
    ”Only accurate rifles are interesting”
    ——Townsend Whelen


    In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act
    —- George Orwell

  19. #79
    Boolit Master greywuuf's Avatar
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    Trying hard to see where the OP asked what was a good competition rifle. BPCR as I understand it means Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. Unless that C is competition. Assuming that every one will or even Wants to compete seems to be the height of arrogance and Hubris. I have not shot a match since I last fired a Garand a 600 yards in uniform and likely never will again. I am however having ton of fun playing with an '86 in 45-70 and contemplating what barrel to put on this second rolling block I have. I think it would be a mistake to assume you need expensive equipment that you are not up to making use of in the first place as a "let's see if I like this" .

  20. #80
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by greywuuf View Post
    Trying hard to see where the OP asked what was a good competition rifle. BPCR as I understand it means Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. Unless that C is competition. Assuming that every one will or even Wants to compete seems to be the height of arrogance and Hubris. I have not shot a match since I last fired a Garand a 600 yards in uniform and likely never will again. I am however having ton of fun playing with an '86 in 45-70 and contemplating what barrel to put on this second rolling block I have. I think it would be a mistake to assume you need expensive equipment that you are not up to making use of in the first place as a "let's see if I like this" .
    I think you are a little over the top frankly. "BPCR" to those that compete is ""BPCR". A game and competition. If it doesn't mean that to you that's fine. But you can put your arrogance and hubris to bed. Thanks.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check