Lubrasizer..

[fredj338]

WD

You are a young man who seems really into shooting. My advice is to put cost way down the list of your criteria. Good equipment lasts a life time. Equipment that meets your needs is a pleasure to use

Look at your current needs and where you think you will be heading.

Most people tell you what they use.

I have three methods. Each has advantages. BTW I do not powder coat....use a Star, have two Lyman 45’s and then BLL.

Do more thinking. I suspect a lot of good used stuff will be available as people leave the hobby. If you know your long term goals you can pounce on deals on dies and equipment as they become available.

^^THIS^^^
Cheeping out on good tools eventually means more time invested or buying better later. I am pretty much past conventional lubes now with coatings. I have an older Star lube/sizer & really, the only way to go imo. The Lyman & RCBS & & Saeco are all good but slower than the Star by a good margin. If you are seating gc, then the Star isnt as user friendly & I would look at one of the others.

[charlie b]

I have done pan lube a lot in the past. Messy.

LLA, if properly applied, works ok, but, I haven't tried it on rifle bullets, only pistol. 45-45-10 or BLL work better if you want to go with tumble lube. It takes a long time to cure.

I had a Lyman many years ago. Once you get the rhythm of how much to turn the lube handle it works well. I ended up selling it when bulk bullet prices dropped (90's).

I have been looking for a Star for quite a while now. Every time I find one someone else has beaten me to it.

[megasupermagnum]

If by gas check seater for the Lymans, you mean that dumb metal spacer that keeps the punch from coming down, I've had one forever, tried it once, and fail to see how it is worth more than 10 cents. If I had to do that to seat gas checks, I would have given up cast bullets on day 1. The Star works great for gas checks, as does the Lee and NOE sizers, or just using the Lyman as it was intended.

I can fully understand why so many new casters are going straight for coating. On the surface it seems cheaper. Ultimately it will cost about the same, but the price of a used Star is still quite the investment for a lot of people.

[TurnipEaterDown]

I have pretty much given up on the base first sizers like my RCBS LAM II.

I had used this quite a bit, for both rifle and pistol cast bullets, but began to have aggravating issues with die position.
While I always was careful in my mind to seat the die properly, I began to learn that seating the die "properly" probably didn't in reality do much for sizing bullets concentrically.

I learned this while working to produce good bullets with an Accurate 42-290G mold. This bullet just happens to have no crimp groove, and no visually defined driving band. It is a tangent ogive.
The bullets looked great coming from the mold, and when sized in my RCBS LAM II, they had sizing marks as if the mold had shifted blocks. Fairly lengthy discussion over email w/ Tom resulted in sending him pictures, and then bullets, the mold, and the sizer die to diagnose the issue.
These were Tom's exact words after I sent him the sizer die: "With your die in my press, the bullet settled into the die leans towards the press body every time and pressed in with a flat top punch, deforms in that direction.
A fitted punch tilts it in the other direction and deforms it that way. Consistently, every time.
Rotating the die 180 degrees produces the same results.
This would seem to "prove" that my press is the problem, even though it's never happened with countless dozens of other dies in this particular press."
It had us both stumped.

I went to a NOE sizer (nose first) and had Zero issues with this bullet. Visually perfect sizing, and 2000 fps 50 yd. groups w/ an 8 minute red dot sight and a craptacular Steyr 95 trigger like this: 1.375 (4/4), 1.0 (3/4), 1.3125 (4/4), 1.1875 (3/4)
So, it wasn't the bullet mold, my alloy, my technique, etc.

Some time after discussing this sizing issue w/ Tom, I began to really take a hard look at other bullets sized using this LAM II.
Any bullet that sized very little (like my 8mm 196 SAECO @ 0.325) looked great under a magnifier. No visual offset of front driving band.
Any bullet that had to size a couple thousandths: visual offset of front driving band when viewed in magnifier. One side was getting reduced in radius more (closer to the design center of the bullet) than the other. Did Not matter what bullet I looked at 30 cal, 8mm, 35, 44, 475, 512.
This press may be a lemon and the design fine, but I believe that the design feature used to align the die in the press leaves something to be desired. I believe that the cone on the bottom of the die fits a receiving cone in the press, and if the tolerances are slightly out on one or the other, you will have issues.

I have since changed to nose first push through on any bullet that isn't just barely touched in my LAM II, and I have run group tests where I have proven to myself over multiple 10 shot groups that nose first sizing with the equipment I have (NOE & LEE sizers) is better than the base first (at least coming out of my LAM II).

Base first sizers like the RCBS have a speed advantage, but what good is that if they don't size correctly?

I will pan lube, cut out w/ brass tubing or modified cases, and push through size when I have a bullet that is anything but final size dropping from the mold.


I would post some pictures of my sizing issues and group tests, but the system here just seems to lock up when I try to attach the images.

[Sasquatch-1]

Messy? In what way?

After coating and removing from whatever container I use, the lube gets over my hands, gloves, tweezers or plyers, whatever I have tried to use. When using the Lee push thru sizers the lube will tend to cake up on the bottom punch and when using the RCBS/Lyman sizing dies, the lube cakes up on the top punch and fill the nose cavity of the punch. When seating the bullets into the case I again get lube on my hand's which transfers to the next case Although this does happen with the RCBS/Lyman sized and lubed bullets also.

[Sasquatch-1]

For lubing there is one alternative I do not believe has been mentioned, and that is the smear method for lack of a better name. This is where you use a softer hard lube and force it into the groves with your fingers. Probably the messiest technique I have tried and still has to be sized.

[dondiego]

I have a Lyman 450 and several sizing dies and the system works great! I haven't used it it in years due to LEE push through dies and liquid alox and 45-45-10 and BLL and now NOE push through dies. By the way, if you are getting messy boolit noses using liquid alox or any of the other lubes, you need to dilute it with mineral spirits and use way less lube. It should end up as a light tan coating.

[centershot]

After coating and removing from whatever container I use, the lube gets over my hands, gloves, tweezers or plyers, whatever I have tried to use. When using the Lee push thru sizers the lube will tend to cake up on the bottom punch and when using the RCBS/Lyman sizing dies, the lube cakes up on the top punch and fill the nose cavity of the punch. When seating the bullets into the case I again get lube on my hand's which transfers to the next case Although this does happen with the RCBS/Lyman sized and lubed bullets also.

Sasquatch-1,
Are you using LLA straight out of the bottle? If so, I can understand your problem! I tumble lube all the time and have none of the problems you cite. My lube solution is made from one bottle of LLA added to one can of Johnson's Paste Wax (floor wax) that has been melted first. Stir in the LLA, stir well, let it cool and cover it. You don't need very much to lube your boolits! Put your boolits in a plastic tub, dribble a TINY amount of lube on them and swirl 'til they're coated. Pour them out on wax paper to dry overnight. If they're tacky to the touch after 24 hours, you used too much lube. You should just barely be able to see the lube on the boolits. If you feel that the lube solution is too thick, just add some mineral spirits or naphtha to it. Naphtha is the solvent in the LLA, but mineral spirits works fine. The problems you're having with tumble lube are pretty common, but generally it's because of too much lube.

[Winger Ed.]

This is where you use a softer hard lube and force it into the groves with your fingers. Probably the messiest technique I have tried and still has to be sized.

I can vouch for that!
When I first got my 1911, and mold, I'd forgotten to get a sizer at the same time.

I cast the boolits, did the smear method with hi-temp. disc brake grease, and went to the range.
The first 1/8th inch or so of the barrel sized them right down, but I also learned a lot real fast about barrel leading.

[reddog81]

I found a Lyman 450 Lubesizer a few years back for $100 and it came with some lube, a number of the common sizing dies, and nose punches - .309, .355, .358, .453 and a few others.

I'm not sure you'll find a deal like that with the prices on everything going crazy but a Want To Buy ad in the Swapping and Selling section might yield some results.

One nice thing about the Lyman 450 is that it is common enough you can find random parts, sizing dies, and lube sticks that fit it pretty easily.

[Baltimoreed]

I prefer Lyman Orange Magic hard lube so a heater is necessary but it’s not messy.

[AndyC]

I use the NOE sizing dies in my Star quite happily - I have the NOE adapter for it:

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/prod...or-star-sizer/

Note, though - it will not allow lube to pass through, it's purely a sizing die. I powdercoat my bullets so lubing isn't an issue for me.

[Sasquatch-1]

Sasquatch-1,
Are you using LLA straight out of the bottle? If so, I can understand your problem! I tumble lube all the time and have none of the problems you cite. My lube solution is made from one bottle of LLA added to one can of Johnson's Paste Wax (floor wax) that has been melted first. Stir in the LLA, stir well, let it cool and cover it. You don't need very much to lube your boolits! Put your boolits in a plastic tub, dribble a TINY amount of lube on them and swirl 'til they're coated. Pour them out on wax paper to dry overnight. If they're tacky to the touch after 24 hours, you used too much lube. You should just barely be able to see the lube on the boolits. If you feel that the lube solution is too thick, just add some mineral spirits or naphtha to it. Naphtha is the solvent in the LLA, but mineral spirits works fine. The problems you're having with tumble lube are pretty common, but generally it's because of too much lube.

I very seldom use the LLA. The only times I do used it is with the original Lee directions. Apart from the time consuming and rather expensive process of swaging I find I like PC the best. Second is the LAM.

[Mk42gunner]

I don't believe there is any way to use your NOE bushings with any type of current lubrasisizer, since I think they work like the Lee system with a reloading press.

The big deal with lubrasizers isn't really buying the press; its after you get a dozen or so sizing dies and top punches (if needed) that it becomes cost prohibitive to change systems.

Myself, I started out with a used RCBS Lubamatic (same system and dies as the Lyman) and a few Lee push through dies. The Lyman/RCBS system works, but it is slow if you are doing very many at a time. there is also a learning curve to how often and how much you need to tweek the pressure reservoir.

Since there aren't many stores where you actually see the different methods in person, why not go to youtube and search for bullet lubing? You may find a system that works for you, or maybe one that you definitely do not like.

I have never had a problem seating gas checks in my LAM. I do have a couple of 450's waiting in the wings, but that is more for different lubes (totally cleaning lube from one is a messy proposition).

Robert

[Oldfeller]

Wolfdog,

This was your original question:

"What's the most budget yet versatile option for a lubrasizer type thing? Anything out there that I can use in conjunction with my NOE bushings?"

Here is my answer to your question.

Either go powder coat from the very beginning or sign up to spend hundreds (thousands ???) over your casting career chasing lubricizer dies, lube types and nose first vs butt first methods.

I have done this, and in retrospect if powder coat had been available back then I would have gone powder coat from the very beginning.

You have a NOE sizing die holder and the NOE dies cost less than LEE push through dies (most times, anyway).

Even buying LEE push through dies, you have a limited amount of sizes you need to get over time as the diameters that you shoot don't change.

A cheap dedicated vibratory bowl applies the powder, you use parchment paper and a pair of your very own cookie sheets (to keep the wife happy) and you are started for cheap on the system you will wind up liking more and more as you get older.

Or, you can waste as much money as many of the rest of us have done.



Before you start buying lots & lots of stuff, look at the little die bushings that fit this thing. Somebody sells a holder to put these die bushings into a normal press.

Good luck on not spending too much money on your new hobby/addiction.


Oldfeller




New Item of Interest:

LEE and NOE have gotten together to make your NOE bushings work on LEE APP press.

There is somebody else doing this adaptation for standard presses, (I think). The video mentions a guy's name you could check into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ4NO42OPt4 (it is a YouTube video, so click on it)

[Wolfdog91]

I have followed some of your threads , & get the sense you are more interested in cast rifle shooting with power coated boollits , so your needs for a lubesizer will be much different than mine .
I guess my question would be what are your plans for your future cast shooting ?

Honestly have no clue , I'm pretty squirrel brained when I'm enjoying my hobbies, it's usually along the lines of " hay that looks interesting let's try that !"
Honestly powder coating seems to be the best fit for me but figured sm eventually I'm gonna wanna try lube sizing because why not

[Wolfdog91]

Wolfdog,

This was your original question:

"What's the most budget yet versatile option for a lubrasizer type thing? Anything out there that I can use in conjunction with my NOE bushings?"

Here is my answer to your question.

Either go powder coat from the very beginning or sign up to spend hundreds (thousands ???) over your casting career chasing lubricizer dies, lube types and nose first vs butt first methods.

I have done this, and in retrospect if powder coat had been available back then I would have gone powder coat from the very beginning.

You have a NOE sizing die holder and the NOE dies cost less than LEE push through dies (most times, anyway).

Even buying LEE push through dies, you have a limited amount of sizes you need to get over time as the diameters that you shoot don't change.

A cheap dedicated vibratory bowl applies the powder, you use parchment paper and a pair of your very own cookie sheets (to keep the wife happy) and you are started for cheap on the system you will wind up liking more and more as you get older.

Or, you can waste as much money as many of the rest of us have done.



Before you start buying lots & lots of stuff, look at the little die bushings that fit this thing. Somebody sells a holder to put these die bushings into a normal press.

Good luck on not spending too much money on your new hobby/addiction.


Oldfeller




New Item of Interest:

LEE and NOE have gotten together to make your NOE bushings work on LEE APP press.

There is somebody else doing this adaptation for standard presses, (I think). The video mentions a guy's name you could check into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ4NO42OPt4 (it is a YouTube video, so click on it)

Yes your right! Honestly if I had to go the whole lubsizer route from the get go instead of PC I probably wouldn't have even go into casting. Just too expensive . Talked to alot of older casters who will say " I don't understand why people PC ! My lubsizer world's just fine !" Well it's mainly because for the price of a star sizer or similar I can have a pretty nice PC set up with molds a few different kinda of powder gas checks exc

[megasupermagnum]

I would be more focused on your needs right now, than the distant future. If you are anything like me, you will try both eventually. The cost thing is less of a big deal than many say. If you add up everything for each, the difference is not monumental. I'm pretty sure in one ammo can I have more money tied up in bullet molds than most people put into lubing or coating equipment in their entire lives. You can do either for dirt cheap, but it doesn't come free. Wax lubing bullets without a lubesizer is not fun, that's all there is to that. You can make bullets just as accurate without one, but it is slow and tedious. Same thing with coating though. Lots of people out there are making bullets with those dirt cheap toaster ovens. What they aren't telling you is the frustration, and work they did to make that process work for them. It isn't a turnkey operation. By the time you add up a nice oven, decent equipment, and an area you don't mind being dirty (because you WILL eventually spill coating), you really aren't that far off from the cost of lubesizers. Used Star sizers can be had for $200, sometimes less, sometimes more. Even brand new, they are only $338. It's a tough swallow at first, but then you are set forever. You can coat bullets with a $30 toaster oven, but it is about as much fun as dip lubing bullets. A decent oven is over $100, you want one that has even heat distribution, and accurate temperature control. Better add a PID controller to the cost list. Dies are more, for sure, but this is where you can be smart about it. You really only need a few dies. If you have 3 guns that all take .358" bullets, but you also have a 4th that needs a .357", you don't have to buy another lubing die. You can take those same lubed bullets and run them through a .357" bushing die. At some point, no matter what, you need sizers, so while Star dies are ballpark twice the cost of a Lee or NOE bushing (that die body costs money too), it isn't monumental.

So yes, I do believe you can get a good coating setup for less money than a good lubing setup, but the cost difference isn't enough to really matter. By the time you get that 3rd bullet mold, the difference is gone. You will eventually end up doing both, but I can promise you in 10 years that your coating setup will not hold the same resale value as any of the lubing setup. Take use of the swappin and selling section. There's very little reason to be buying new.

[Hanzy4200]

I strongly suggest you think hard before buying. I wanted one so bad for several years. Finally bought one, and 3 months later discovered powder coating. Mine barely gets used. It's only still around as you can get lube dies in oddball sizes you simply can't get in Lee push through dies. Powder coating is superior in just about every case. Just my opinion.

[Bazoo]

A lubesizer is only like $80 bucks. $20 bucks per sizer. Maybe less of us get lucky. A Lyman lubesizer can be used to size nose first push through style without lubing, for either PC or tumble lube. I think it’s the best option for anyone. The price is really not bad if you buy used. You can always sell it and recoup the money if you change your mind.

Seating gas checks with the Lyman is great. The gas check took blocks the linkage so you can press the gas check on. Trying to seat a gas check when push through sizing doesn’t work unless the gas check is real lose. Many of my gas check bullets are tight enough that it wouldn’t work.