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Thread: shotgun primers in rifle cases

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    As stated above when there is No other Option You can Use them . This is mainly with Obsolete Cases. 43 spanish, 11mm Mauser as such or other Berdan style cases. Now with the influx Of New and obsolete cases , it may or may not pay amore. I am still shooting 43 Spanish with the cases I did this to Many. years ago. Now I have been using Track Of the Wolf Cases
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  2. #42
    Boolit Master
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    I would be afraid of the higher pressures blowing the shotgun primers and releasing hot gases into the face.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Shot guns operate at a max of 11,000 psi. Your rifles are working at 18,000 to 22,000 psi. Using a shotgun primer is courting a nasty blowout.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by omgb View Post
    Shot guns operate at a max of 11,000 psi. Your rifles are working at 18,000 to 22,000 psi. Using a shotgun primer is courting a nasty blowout.
    12 ga 3 1/2” shells are rated at 14,000 psi. Proof loads are IIRC 20,000 psi.

    He may be ok at 18-22,000 psi.
    Don Verna


  5. #45
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Unnecessarily dicey in my book. The guy seems like a newby and thus may not be able to recognize a danger threshold. Besides, after you alter the case head to take the 209 primer, there is no way except for destructive testing to prove the modified cases safe. Much better to for get that whole scenario rather than risk injury and a stain on our sport.


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  6. #46
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by omgb View Post
    Unnecessarily dicey in my book. The guy seems like a newby and thus may not be able to recognize a danger threshold. Besides, after you alter the case head to take the 209 primer, there is no way except for destructive testing to prove the modified cases safe. Much better to for get that whole scenario rather than risk injury and a stain on our sport.


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    depends on your definition of a newby - 73 yrs old, still got all me fingers and toes, and been shooting blackpowder in old guns since I was 15, competent amateur gunsmith on ML and Winchester lever gunz. Yeah I spose still a newby - I put the question out to save some legwork as I thought some of the fellers here whose opinions I take notice of might chime in. They have, which is much appreciated.

  7. #47
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    Some actual testing here. The tests were for gun strength but does seem the primers were surviving the testing.

    The Winchester "Violent Proof" (VP) load was reported to be 7 1/2 (long) tons or about 24,000 psi by using Burrard's conversion. Proof loads do not rupture primers.


    https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns...pressures.html

    Now back to the worry that excessive pressures are going to cause shotgun barrels to blow up. While this can happen, it is rare. I once embarked under contract to Remington on a destructive testing regimen to determine how much pressure had to be developed in a Remington Model 870 12-gauge barrels chambered for 3-inch shells before they would explode.

    SAAMI tells us that whether using 2¾-inch or 3-inch 12-gauge loads, the maximum allowable pressure level of such shells is 11,500 psi. In this gauge and shell lengths, by the way, SAAMI provides for a mean average of 19,800 psi proof loads for proofing such barrels. So, I started by firing loads which developed 20,000 psi in the test Remington 870 barrels. Nothing happened. I increased the pressure level to 25,000 psi; nothing happened. I continued increasing the pressure by 5,000 psi. Nothing happened even when the pressure level of the destructive testing load reached 50,000 psi! Finally, when I got to 55,000 psi I could get Remington 870 barrels chambered for 3-inch 12-gauge shells to blow up. And they would blow up spectacularly, banana-peeling into multiple segments forward of the chamber. Up until 55,000 psi the barrels wouldn’t even bulge. So we can conclude, at least, that’s how smart Remington is in building super-strong shotgun barrels to withstand excessive pressure levels.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 03-12-2022 at 04:35 AM.
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  8. #48
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Please accept my apologies, I had some crazy idea you were a kid. My error. I still think it's dicey, but you are a grown up and certainly as qualified as I am. So, again, I apologize. No slight intended.
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    I don't think the primer is the reason shotgun ammo is kept to the low pressure levels they use. The hull of a shot shell is not as strong as the brass cases of a rifle round. They use to be paper and the plastic hulls are probably stronger than paper but still not at the level of brass. The shogun primer appears to be stronger than a rifle primer. The outer case of a shotgun primer is steel which is stronger than brass.

  10. #50
    Boolit Bub
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    I have milled out a 223 and 221 FB cases to fit a 209 shot shell primer to a snug fit but could easily knock out the primer with a small brass rod. This set up was so I could shoot 17 and 22 caliber pellets from my centerfire (no powder, just the 209 blast). It was a fun little project that made for a nice quiet back yard critter get’r. But reloading it was more work than I cared for.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by omgb View Post
    Please accept my apologies, I had some crazy idea you were a kid. My error. I still think it's dicey, but you are a grown up and certainly as qualified as I am. So, again, I apologize. No slight intended.
    No problem - I would like to still be a kid (well not really - 40 would be good though ) - I am pretty darn careful with any experimental stuff - have never blown anything up by accident.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    I have tested cast boolit loads using brass with 209s fitted without problems. Today I decided to test jacketed bullets with higher pressure loads. I used a 7mm Mauser with a case converted to 209 primers. The two loads I tried were a 160gr bullet with 43gs and 48grs of H4831 and Winchester 209 primers. Neither of the loads showed any signs of the primer having any problems. Pressure on the 48gr load should be around 45,000 CUP. I don't think you would reach anywhere near that kind of pressure using black powder.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    I have tested cast boolit loads using brass with 209s fitted without problems. Today I decided to test jacketed bullets with higher pressure loads. I used a 7mm Mauser with a case converted to 209 primers. The two loads I tried were a 160gr bullet with 43gs and 48grs of H4831 and Winchester 209 primers. Neither of the loads showed any signs of the primer having any problems. Pressure on the 48gr load should be around 45,000 CUP. I don't think you would reach anywhere near that kind of pressure using black powder.
    thanks for that

  14. #54
    Boolit Bub
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    I am a little late to this party but just joined and this is my first post. I came into a lot of old Kynock 577-450 brass with Berdan primers and they are almost impossible to find so i modified the cases to take a 209 primer. Here is a shot of a sectioned case.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	V-sectioned case with 209 primer small.jpg 
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    I modified a countersink I found at Lowes to do the job in one pass. The drill cuts a .237" hole that makes for a press fit on a 209 and the countersink is ground to .330" to clear the rim of the primer. I just go straight through the spent primer and use a dial indicator to set the depth for the primer. Here is what the tool looks like:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Primer tool II small.jpg 
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    It works surprisingly well and I did at least a hundred like this. The 209 isn't well suited to higher pressures and will leak if you get too high. I use these mainly for smokeless to black type of loads for target shooting and haven't had any troubles. They push out just fine. Here is a shot of the lathe set-up.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Primer lathe set-up IIi.jpg small.jpg 
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    I can't say that it will work in your situation but it got that old brass working again. They definitely will light off the powder as the SD's on these are all very low and accuracy is at least as good as with standard primers. Good luck, Squid Boy
    Last edited by Squid Boy; 03-14-2022 at 10:00 AM. Reason: mistake

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squid Boy View Post
    I am a little late to this party but just joined and this is my first post. I came into a lot of old Kynock 577-450 brass with Berdan primers and they are almost impossible to find so i modified the cases to take a 209 primer. Here is a shot of a sectioned case.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	V-sectioned case with 209 primer small.jpg 
Views:	77 
Size:	32.0 KB 
ID:	297600

    I modified a countersink I found at Lowes to do the job in one pass. The drill cuts a .237" hole that makes for a press fit on a 209 and the countersink is ground to .330" to clear the rim of the primer. I just go straight through the spent primer and use a dial indicator to set the depth for the primer. Here is what the tool looks like:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Primer tool II small.jpg 
Views:	77 
Size:	17.3 KB 
ID:	297601
    It works surprisingly well and I did at least a hundred like this. The 209 isn't well suited to higher pressures and will leak if you get too high. I use these mainly for smokeless to black type of loads for target shooting and haven't had any troubles. They push out just fine. Here is a shot of the lathe set-up.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Primer lathe set-up IIi.jpg small.jpg 
Views:	67 
Size:	48.7 KB 
ID:	297602
    I can't say that it will work in your situation but it got that old brass working again. They definitely will light off the powder as the SD's on these are all very low and accuracy is at least as good as with standard primers. Good luck, Squid Boy
    Excellent first post and welcome!
    Don Verna


  16. #56
    Boolit Bub
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    Don, thanks for the kind words. I think I am going to like it here. Squid Boy

  17. #57
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Yup, you piqued my interest. Looks like I underestimated the hull strength and the ability of the cup to hold back the gasses. I stand both corrected and educated


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    R J Talley
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  18. #58
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    Squid Boy, are you a navy vet?


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    R J Talley
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  19. #59
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    TNsailorman's Avatar
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    welcome to the forum SquidBoy. I'm impressed with your project. I am curious about how long it takes to complete one case. james

  20. #60
    Boolit Master

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    Squid Boy nice pics and welcome I am curious-in the pic of the section round, it appaers to be a Bertram case was that just easier to section?

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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GC Gas Check