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Thread: shotgun primers in rifle cases

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squid Boy View Post
    I am a little late to this party but just joined and this is my first post. I came into a lot of old Kynock 577-450 brass with Berdan primers and they are almost impossible to find so i modified the cases to take a 209 primer. Here is a shot of a sectioned case.
    Attachment 297600

    I modified a countersink I found at Lowes to do the job in one pass. The drill cuts a .237" hole that makes for a press fit on a 209 and the countersink is ground to .330" to clear the rim of the primer. I just go straight through the spent primer and use a dial indicator to set the depth for the primer. Here is what the tool looks like:
    Attachment 297601
    It works surprisingly well and I did at least a hundred like this. The 209 isn't well suited to higher pressures and will leak if you get too high. I use these mainly for smokeless to black type of loads for target shooting and haven't had any troubles. They push out just fine. Here is a shot of the lathe set-up.
    Attachment 297602
    I can't say that it will work in your situation but it got that old brass working again. They definitely will light off the powder as the SD's on these are all very low and accuracy is at least as good as with standard primers. Good luck, Squid Boy
    excellent info thank you !

  2. #62
    Boolit Bub
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    Gentlemen, I hope I can answer all your questions. I am an Army vet and got the name while working on a tuna boat long ago. It seems to have stuck with me. Yes, that V sectioned case is a Bertram. I think it had a split neck and so I used it to start so i wouldn't ruin a good one. I cut out the split for the picture. Once you get set-up it is easy to do a case every minute or so. Drilling through is the easiest part and once you "touchdown" with the recess cutter, you can just use the dial indicator to make the cut. I forget what I depth I used now but primers have different shapes and will need slightly different depths. What I found was that the 209's will leak around the center cap and the cup if pressures get too high. I know this was mentioned earlier in this thread. I haven't tried a whole lot of different primers in these as I have cut back on all my shooting to some extent with the shortages. They are certainly safe in BP and smokeless if you are careful. Thanks again for the welcome. Best Squid Boy

  3. #63
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    Based or Rbuck351's and Squid Boy's experiences, there should be little problem. There have been a couple of warnings about pressure leaks between the primer and outer sleeve. I think that would be more apt to be a problem if headspace were a little loose and much higher pressures than Indian Joe was planning on.
    Spell check doesn't work in Chrome, so if something is spelled wrong, it's just a typo that I missed.

  4. #64
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    This is one of those "Just because you can, don't mean you should" moments. It's been proven time and time again, anybody can modify most anything to do anything. But, you start screwing around with case heads on that level, you're asking for trouble. It's things like this that gave birth to SAMMI. Those cartridge case dimensions are not a suggestion. They exist for a reason. That reason being the containment of huge amounts of pressure being excerted onto really soft metal. All I see in the future of that is a flash cooked face when that gas starts jetting out of the bolt. Then the invention of new and exciting ways to extract case bodies from chambers after the heads start popping loose because of weakened case webs from all that drilling and material removal.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travisbishop View Post
    It's things like this that gave birth to SAMMI. Those cartridge case dimensions are not a suggestion.
    Actually SAAMI is nothing more than voluntary recommendations. Since it's founding in 1926 SAAMI has set voluntary standards for firearm chamber, throat and bore and groove dimensions. Same for ammunition manufactures. This allows for safe interchangeability for commercial ammunition/firearm manufactures.

    Lots of the older more obsolete cartridges still in use and chambered today never received a SAAMI standard. New cartridges are commonly introduced well before the SAAMI standard is established.

    SAAMI pressure standards are based around the weakest commonly available firearm. Good examples are the 45 Colt at 14,000 PSI and the 45/70 at 28,000 PSI. Tons of 45 Colt and 45/70 factory ammo that is over SAAMI specs are produced for firearms that are much stronger than the original 1873 Colt or Trapdoor Springfields.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 03-19-2022 at 02:32 PM.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travisbishop View Post
    This is one of those "Just because you can, don't mean you should" moments. It's been proven time and time again, anybody can modify most anything to do anything. But, you start screwing around with case heads on that level, you're asking for trouble. It's things like this that gave birth to SAMMI. Those cartridge case dimensions are not a suggestion. They exist for a reason. That reason being the containment of huge amounts of pressure being excerted onto really soft metal. All I see in the future of that is a flash cooked face when that gas starts jetting out of the bolt. Then the invention of new and exciting ways to extract case bodies from chambers after the heads start popping loose because of weakened case webs from all that drilling and material removal.
    was gonna answer this - waste of time I think - did ya read the question - nope! - blackpowder loads was specified

  7. #67
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    Today I was removing and resizing shotgun primer cups to use as muzzle loader caps. I was using a magnet to remove the steel outer cases from a box of the cups. I found that about half of the cups stuck to the magnet. Not sure what brand uses the steel primer cups as I was using several different brands of primers. I think a steel cup and steel outer shell should handle any normal rifle pressure, probably even higher than a brass primer. So far my testing has only been to around 45,000cup, but I will be testing further when I figure out whinch primers have steel cups.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbuck351 View Post
    Today I was removing and resizing shotgun primer cups to use as muzzle loader caps. I was using a magnet to remove the steel outer cases from a box of the cups. I found that about half of the cups stuck to the magnet. Not sure what brand uses the steel primer cups as I was using several different brands of primers. I think a steel cup and steel outer shell should handle any normal rifle pressure, probably even higher than a brass primer. So far my testing has only been to around 45,000cup, but I will be testing further when I figure out whinch primers have steel cups.
    not sure I understood this ------so you are pulling the primer cup from the outer case using a magnet????? ----this is live shotgun primers ? or fired ones???

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Dunno where this should go so trying here
    I have bucket loads of shotgun primers left me by my Dad (from trap shooting days) - rifle primers are escalating in price along with everything else and I am head scratching how to utilise these and save a buck without doing me bodily harm

    I could tool up to bore out the primer pockets on a batch of cases to take the shotgun primers (time consuming but not so difficult) and this seems like it works ok with brass shotgun cases reformed for things like 450/577 and even the 45/75 - blackpowder only loads of course.

    Anybody got a lead on this? - done it? - any ideas why its not a smart plan ? 15,000 primers just sitting there, cost me nothing.
    cheers all.
    Joe
    Did you ever get around to this? Curious if it worked for you.

  10. #70
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    Separating the cups and anvils ......once upon a time ,like the 1960s,shotgun primers as bought were just the charged cups......the outer part was called a "tubular anvil" and had to be saved from the spent shell,or you could buy tubular anvils separately .....(This may not apply in the US,what we had here was Eley ammunition ,made by ICI)

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    Separating the cups and anvils ......once upon a time ,like the 1960s,shotgun primers as bought were just the charged cups......the outer part was called a "tubular anvil" and had to be saved from the spent shell,or you could buy tubular anvils separately .....(This may not apply in the US,what we had here was Eley ammunition ,made by ICI)
    am familiar with Eley ammo - spent half my shooting life fighting a flinch acquired as a kid shooting ounce and a quarter ICIL SPECIAL's (chasing roos out of the crop with a mad uncle - I bet we ruined more crop in the chase than they would have ate)

  12. #72
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    Way back in the day..... i had a Martini-Henry, long before IMA had them. I finally found some brass, and it was Berdan primed. I drilled out he primer pockets to the dimension of the shotgun primer, and loaded them with black. I fired quite a few, and reloaded them numerous times without any ill effects. I think my chargewas about 60 grains and wadded on top.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glwenzl View Post
    I have milled out a 223 and 221 FB cases to fit a 209 shot shell primer to a snug fit but could easily knock out the primer with a small brass rod. This set up was so I could shoot 17 and 22 caliber pellets from my centerfire (no powder, just the 209 blast). It was a fun little project that made for a nice quiet back yard critter get’r. But reloading it was more work than I cared for.
    I have done this very thing with 30-30 cases and use wax bullets no powder. Shoot quite well in the basement no noise to speak of.

  14. #74
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    50 CAL. INLINE 209 PRIMER 30 GR BLACKHORN 209 500 GR BULLET PURE LEAD 5 SHOTS ONE RAGED HOLE AT 100 YDs

  15. #75
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    Many years ago I used shotgun bedan primers to load .254 inch 7.62x54 russian cases. I was using cast bullets. The problem was that the military strength firing pin of the mosin carbine that I had was punching a hole clean through the that very thin shotgun primer. It did not create and serious problems, but that particular carbine that had and SA mark on it from the factory had a bad barrel and one it heated that groups veered off to the left many inches at 50 yards. got rid of that rifle. I am not sure if that is an issue with 209 primers and a super strong firing pin.

  16. #76
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    Years ago, I read an extensive thread (possibly here?) on converting 8x56R Berdan primed brass for 209 primers, back when the M95 Straight-pull
    Mannlicher rifles were not common and the original Austrian ammo had not flooded the country. There were no boxer primed cases available as I recall.
    The writer reported very good results with cast bullets up to about 1600 fps using smokeless powder. Apparently he continued this practice for quite a while without any problems.
    FWIW,
    John

  17. #77
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    The primer is not the weakest link in the shotgun pressure issues.

    https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns...pressures.html

    SAAMI tells us that whether using 2¾-inch or 3-inch 12-gauge loads, the maximum allowable pressure level of such shells is 11,500 psi. In this gauge and shell lengths, by the way, SAAMI provides for a mean average of 19,800 psi proof loads for proofing such barrels. So, I started by firing loads which developed 20,000 psi in the test Remington 870 barrels. Nothing happened. I increased the pressure level to 25,000 psi; nothing happened. I continued increasing the pressure by 5,000 psi. Nothing happened even when the pressure level of the destructive testing load reached 50,000 psi! Finally, when I got to 55,000 psi I could get Remington 870 barrels chambered for 3-inch 12-gauge shells to blow up. And they would blow up spectacularly, banana-peeling into multiple segments forward of the chamber. Up until 55,000 psi the barrels wouldn’t even bulge. So we can conclude, at least, that’s how smart Remington is in building super-strong shotgun barrels to withstand excessive pressure levels.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-12-2022 at 12:21 AM.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    Actually SAAMI is nothing more than voluntary recommendations. Since it's founding in 1926 SAAMI has set voluntary standards for firearm chamber, throat and bore and groove dimensions. Same for ammunition manufactures. This allows for safe interchangeability for commercial ammunition/firearm manufactures.

    Lots of the older more obsolete cartridges still in use and chambered today never received a SAAMI standard. New cartridges are commonly introduced well before the SAAMI standard is established.

    SAAMI pressure standards are based around the weakest commonly available firearm. Good examples are the 45 Colt at 14,000 PSI and the 45/70 at 28,000 PSI. Tons of 45 Colt and 45/70 factory ammo that is over SAAMI specs are produced for firearms that are much stronger than the original 1873 Colt or Trapdoor Springfields.
    I do know that trade associations that set standards have been adopted by osha to regulate industries. In the USA we do not have a government proofing house and Saami specs are all there is and as stated I do not believe have force of law. But in a civil tort case I am guessing if some ammo manufacturer exceeds the loading resulting in injury, they better be able to defend it in court.

  19. #79
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    FWIW
    The rifle I proposed doing this with is a brand new 1886 winchester with BLACKPOWDER loads ---the safety margin on that outfit is gi normous
    next would be a model 92 in 38/40, again blackpowder in a strong action

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
    I do know that trade associations that set standards have been adopted by osha to regulate industries. In the USA we do not have a government proofing house and Saami specs are all there is and as stated I do not believe have force of law. But in a civil tort case I am guessing if some ammo manufacturer exceeds the loading resulting in injury, they better be able to defend it in court.
    Buffalo Bore, Garrett and others specialize in and load many over SAAMI loads.

    One example here http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570420tech.html

    Garrett's 45-70 +P Hammerhead Ammo

    420-gr SuperHardCast gas-checked Hammerhead at 1850-fps*

    THIS AMMO IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN THE FOLLOWING MODERN FIREARMS: MARLIN, HENRY, SHILOH SHARPS, PEDERSOLI SHARPS, ENCORE, NEF, H&R, BROWNING, RUGER, AND WINCHESTER RIFLES. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THIS AMMO BE FIRED IN ANY TRAPDOOR SPRINGFIELDS OR ANY OTHER FIREARMS NOT LISTED HERE!

    Energy: 3200 ft/lbs: Taylor Knockout Value: 51; Meplat: .330”;
    Chamber Pressure: 35,000-cup; Brinnell Hardness: 25;
    Trajectory: +3” @ 100-yds, ZERO @ 160-YDS, -10” @ 225-YDS
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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