When was the last time you had to remove lead from a barrel?

[waksupi]

It's been so many years, I don't remember!

[megasupermagnum]

Well I'm sure if you put a bore scope down, you would see some lead, so technically every time. If you mean when was the last time I had to break out the chore boy, it's been about a year. I like to purposefully run to the limit to see just how soft of an alloy I can get away with.

[bangerjim]

Not since I started doing PC on everything. That was back in late 2013!

PC is great. And no sticky boolits in the summer or grease smoke from the lube. And I can cast much softer boolits.

[onelight]

Last week .
I have a Bersa 22lr that leads like crazy with some ammo .
I forgot Winchester was one of the brands it hates

[reedap1]

Like others, not since I started powder coating. Even with PC I barely have to clean the barrels of my auto pistols and revolvers though sometimes I see some accuracy degradation with rifles after about 100 rounds or so. I'm getting real close to the point of NEVER cleaning my auto pistols until they stop working...and when that happens it will be a result of powder fouling though I avoid even that by using very clean-burning powders like American Select in my pistols.

[Old Caster]

I started shooting lead for Bullseye in 1965 for the Army and we used quite soft lead because we used range pickup and a lot of 22 shooting was done there. We never cleaned from our guns because it wasn't a problem. After I got out of the Army all of the friends I met shooting Bullseye were using Star hollowpoint swaged bullets that had something like Alox on them but they were not a bit sticky. They were pure lead and no one had a problem. Once about 10 years ago my friends and I were trying to get a revolver to shoot 158 grain SWC bullets to shoot accurately so we could compete in the distinguished revolver matches which required a SWC and we probably shot about 20 different manufacturers bullets to try to get them accurate and maybe 5 inches or so at 50 yards were as good as we could get and I thought it might be leading. I would shoot 5 rounds and clean the barrel out and get a bit of lead that I would drop onto a black piece of paper so I could tell how much difference between bullets. Harder bullets were definitely worse but I quickly learned that if I shot 50 rounds and then cleaned instead of 5 rounds, it wasn't any worse apparently because when the bullet went down the bore it cleaned out what was in there the last shot and left new. When I got down to a BHN of less than around 9 leading went way down and the only way to get them was to cast them myself. Even commercial swaged at that time were around 10-11. The biggest problem with soft bullets is that they are harder to cast well. We finally settled on a Lyman 358277 and a RCBS 150 SWC. I had a little bit better results with the RCBS but it was a two cavity mold and the Lyman was a 4 so timed and rapid got the Lyman and 50 yard slow fire got the RCBS. All the shooting was done from my Ransom Rest and the best we got was 2 inches for 5 shots and it was out of a S&W model 14 and a Python. I had to shoot the S&W because the Python didn't fit me right. The one thing we learned for sure that for us to clean lead out of our barrels doing this was a waste of time but bear in mind we were shooting around 720 FPS. I have shot my Anaconda maybe 500 times and use the same 7-9 BHN for it and it goes over a thousand with a 255 grain Saeco and it does not lead either. It is very accurate also especially compared to my Ruger SBH.

[murf205]

3 times in the last two weeks.
AND...
every other time I have taken my 625-8 to the range.

Do you think the EDM rifling in that 625-8 is the culprit? I have a 625-3 that doesn't lead a bit. I am not sure when S&W went to EDM but I have heard a lot of cast shooters complain about it.

I just looked at my 625-3 and the rifling looks like the sharp flat top, square cut type. Also I might have been using the wrong term to describe the rifling process. I have heard it refered to as the Electro Discharge Machining process but it is also called Electronic Chemical Machining, thus ECM moniker.

[todd9.3x57]

i have shot(with each) cast boolits around 1500-2500 times with my 30-40 krag and my 444 marlin. my bores are "clean" and its been about 7 years.

i have tumbled a boolit in my son's 7.65x53 argie(91 mauser). i sized the boolit at .313" but it needed and extra .002"(.315").

i have a ruger sbh that i clean every time i shoot, but i don't clean the inside of barrel until the accuracy falls off.

[higgins]

Just a couple of weeks ago, after I got a borescope. I thought there was some lead in a .357 (shooting 38 spl. cast loads) and a .45 Colt, but I never imagined how much. It's nice being able to monitor buildup and see how different bullet diameters and lubes affect leading.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Except for wiping off exterior surfaces and perhaps revolver cyclinders, i seldom clean the bores on my cast shooters. The barrels look shiny clean and are well seasoned with lube apparently. On the revolvers the round count is well into the hundreds and accuracy is good as ever.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Do you think the EDM rifling in that 625-8 is the culprit? I have a 625-3 that doesn't lead a bit. I am not sure when S&W went to EDM but I have heard a lot of cast shooters complain about it.

I just looked at my 625-3 and the rifling looks like the sharp flat top, square cut type. Also I might have been using the wrong term to describe the rifling process. I have heard it refered to as the Electro Discharge Machining process but it is also called Electronic Chemical Machining, thus ECM moniker.

My 625-8 has the 6 groove ECM barrel. I don't think that's the cause of my minor lead fouling, but I suppose it could be? PC coated boolits lead foul the barrel also. I always get a kick out of all the PC fanboys pretending PC is the fix all.
I've read as many positive reports about these ECM barreled guns, as I have negative reports, hence my reason to think it's not the rifling, but some other mechanical irregularity, like maybe a "difficult to see burr" at the begining of the rifling, that's where my lead fouling is located, but I don't "see" any burr. Also, I've shot over two thousand rounds through it (bought it new), cleaned it many times with brass jag, tight cotton patch, and chore boy, so I would think a burr would wear down by now. So maybe it's something else. I hate to mess with it, because it's a very accurate revolver.

I've had two other older 625 revolvers, both with the older style "cut" rifling. I didn't have lead fouling issues with either of those.


http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...-chemical.html

Sunday, May 23, 2010
Rifling: Manufacturing: Electro Chemical Machining
In our last post, we talked about a modern manufacturing process called Electric Discharge Machining (EDM). In this post, we will talk about another process that also uses electricity, named Electro Chemical Machining (ECM).

This method is also a very precise method, but it is much more suitable for mass production. Like the EDM process, the ECM process can also be used on hard materials that cannot be machined by other more mechanical processes. Unlike the EDM process, no sparks are generated between the cathode and anode. The best way to understand ECM is to think of it as reverse-electroplating (i.e.) instead of adding material, we remove it.

Since 1993, Smith & Wesson has been using ECM to manufacture most of their revolver barrels. They use machines manufactured by Surftran to do their work. The barrels are hardened and annealed before the rifling process. The hardened barrels are then placed in the ECM machine and held stationary. The electrode is a plastic cylinder with metal strips circling around the exterior. The metal strips are a reverse image of the desired rifling and are inset into the plastic cylinder. This way, only the plastic part of the cylinder touches the barrel and not the metal strips. The electrode is placed inside the barrel and the whole is immersed into an electrolytic solution of sodium nitrate which is constantly circulating under pressure. The electrode is moved down the barrel and rotated at the desired rate of rifling twist. As current flows from the cathode (the electrode) to the anode (the barrel), the material is removed from the anode to duplicate the grooves in the shape of the electrode. Because the metal parts of the electrode never actually touch the barrel (only the plastic core does) and because the flowing electrolyte removes any material from the barrel before it has a chance to accumulate on the metal strips, the electrode usually lasts a very long time and needs no cleaning or maintenance. In fact, the electrode is replaced only when the plastic core which contacts the barrel to provide proper centering and spacing of the metal strips, wears out.

The advantages of this are that the process is extremely precise and can be used to machine hard materials like hard steel alloys, titanium alloys etc. Similar to the EDM process, it also produces no heat or stress on the barrel during the rifling process and also produces an excellent finish. Unlike the EDM process though, it is much faster to machine parts using this technique. A typical rifling job for a 357 magnum revolver barrel can be done in about one minute using this process, making it ideal for mass production. The tool can also be repeatedly used as there is very little tool wear.

The disadvantages are that these machines have high tooling cost and also use large amounts of electricity.

[murf205]

The reason I wondered is that my 629 is an ECM gun and it leaded a bit, not bad but I was having to keep an eye out for it. I got it with .4285-.429 cylinder throats and a .429 groove diameter. It has been opened to .431 and the leading has been lessened quite a bit since going to .431 boolits, some PC'ed and some not. Doesn't seem to matter. It is about as accurate as an old geezer can shoot.

[Hanzy4200]

It's been a couple years. Single I now size properly, and powder coat most calibers, leading is all but done with. In my first few years, I was scrubbing lead a LOT.

[jsizemore]

I tip the barrel over and shovel WW's or ingots into 5 gallon buckets. I have had to put a rope or strap around the top of the barrel and tie the other end to my truck to get it tipped.

[Martin Luber]

Hard linotype 45,acp with normal bullseye loads leaded badly ( smears, chunks, and streaks) whereas softer boolets did not. I guess it was gas overspray and lack of sealing the bore.

If soft swaged are leading it's frequently due to being swaged into a too small case.

[rbuck351]

About 25 years ago. I had just started the Corretional Officer academy and we were shooting some very soft lead bullets. Possibly pure lead and not mild loads. We each fired a couple of hundred rounds with 2 to 3 people per gun. At the end of the day we returned to the class room and cleaned the guns. All were horribly clogged with lead and we used scouring pad strands wrapped around cleaning jags and removed chunks and strips of lead. I have never had anything even remotely like that on any of my guns.

[rintinglen]

I bought a S&W Model 69 44 mag that leaded horribly. The throats were horribly undersized-- ~.4275 IIRC-- while the bore was EDM rifled. I never did get it to quit leading, even after Dougguy did his magic on the cylinder throats. S&W did nothing in response to my letter so I sold it and haven't bought a new Smith since.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Well, just put a little lead in the bore of my new to me, S&W 52-1. Not my own .38 wadcutters though, some factory loaded ones that leaded everything I've tried them in. Some type of dry lube on them that doesn't work worth a hoot. My own cast WC's with Ben's Red is the answer.

[Mal Paso]

I used to own a Lewis Lead Remover back in the bad old days before I had good fit. I was in on the first NOE 429421 group buy and replaced my undersize Lyman 429421. As I recall I gained almost 100 fps with that tighter fit. The S&W 629 had .428 throats which I opened to .431" with a Manson reamer about the same time. Now I run a bronze bristle followed by a dry patch which picks up the carbon.

Lewis beats Chore Boy but it's better not to go there.

[LaPoint]

I haven't had to clean lead from the bore of any of my guns for many years. About two years ago a friend's son told me that he thought the barrel of his S&W 4506 was ruined as he couldn't see any rifling in it and it was all chewed up. I looked at it and recognized that it was just severely leaded. I first made a couple of passes with a bore brush wrapped in copper chore boy strands the a few minutes with a Lewis Lead Remover and it was spotless. He was amazed.