Newest cartridge sensation; 8.6 Blackout.

[uscra112]

Exemplifies in the cartridge field the old adage that fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen, not fish. And it will catch a few. Mostly it will make marketing noise to keep shooters more aware of the name of the maker. Like that 50kpsi .32 caliber handgun round that's gotten so much play on another thread.

[fastdadio]

[QUOTE=dverna;5343102]Being cast friendly does not matter to me if a caliber is useful for my needs.

This applies to me also. I'm one of the guys that just bought an AR in 350 Legend. I live in a rifle restricted zone. I had no interest in ar's until this cartridge came along. Not a hater, they just weren't chambered in anything useful for me. Then things just lined up. I checked out the Legend and found it to be a good round. Ballistic equivillant to the .35 Rem. Then the sales popped up on 350 uppers, and badda bing! Imma tactical timmy. I'm very happy with my purchase.

[Lloyd Smale]

I developed a new cartridge. I load the Lee 200gr. .30cal in my 30-30 @ 1050fps. I call it the 330 blackout schnizzle. It's all the rage at my house. You guys will catch on.

i thought that was the 307 blackout

[Lloyd Smale]

Being cast friendly does not matter to me if a caliber is useful for my needs.

The .223 is not cast friendly (at least for me) and I have 6 rifles in that caliber because it works!

I cannot figure what this thing does for me or most other shooters. In a hunting application, I assume a .338 Federal or .358 Win can be used in the AR10? Both seems better options.

same with me. Matter of fact the only bolt gun in the house that gets cast is the 300 bo and the 3 300 bo ars are the only ars (other then pistol caliber) that see cast. played a bit with cast in the 556 and wasted lots of powder and primers chasing accuracy. Went back to ball and soft point bullets for that. If i want to shoot cheap and accurate i load cast in the bo or better yet one of my 9mm ar15s.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

The 338 Federal looks more interesting to me.....

[414gates]

458x1.5 Barnes pre-dated a lot of subsonic calibers.

This should do 600 grains subsonic. I say should, because I haven't tested it yet.

[Rich/WIS]

Reminds me of those new and popular and widely used cartridges like the 223, 243, 25, 7mm, 300 and 325 Winchester Super Short Magnums. Supposed to revolutionize shooting, but didn't quite do it. Some are still loaded, but after the initial flurry of interest were pretty thin on the ground, and this well before the current ammo situation. The terminal performance of this one will impress the 25-50 yard spray and pray crowd I'm sure, but how many hunters will actually use it. Given the performance possible with the 338 Win Mag available in rifles from most makers and until recently the availability of loaded ammo and components just don't see this being more thana niche cartridge appealing to a very small number of shooters who like the type of rifle it is chambered for.

[bowfin]

The 338 Federal looks more interesting to me.....

My brother made a .338 Federal AR type for deer hunting.

I would absolutely love to have a .338 Federal Savage 99. A guy can dream, can't he?

[elmacgyver0]

i dont see an advantage to it if your shooting subsonic over a black out and you have to carry around a rifle that weigths 2 or more lbs more. Now if it would fit in an ar15 instead of an ar10 it would be a cool full power round.

The advantage of it is the increased gun sales to the guys who already have the AR-10, now they need the 8.whatever.

[cwtebay]

The advantage of it is the increased gun sales to the guys who already have the AR-10, now they need the 8.whatever.

I believe what Lloyd is trying to get at is that the AR 10 market is a smidgen of the AR 15. And with yet another caliber...well ....
(Forgive me if I'm mistaken here Lloyd - not trying to speak for you - but when I asked about the 300 SAUM you seemed to know where you were coming from).

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[Idaho45guy]

The guy that told me about this cartridge that was so smitten with it had no desire to get it in an AR-10 platform.

He was excited because he could get it in an extremely compact bolt-action rifle with a 12" barrel and be able to shoot deer out to 400 yards with it.

I own an AR-10 in .308 and it is an awful hunting rifle. It is heavy and bulky and cumbersome in the woods to carry. I would sell it, but I think every man of fighting age should own a battle rifle. Especially in these perilous times of oppression and violence from our own government.

But I digress...

I am 100% certain that I will never own a firearm chambered in this cartridge, as it does not offer me anything that I want. But I was just curious as to what it DID offer that some folks might actually want.

And that seems to be a big bullet, going reasonably fast, and spinning ridiculously fast, delivering lots of energy to a target 400 yards away from an extremely light and compact rifle.

[Lloyd Smale]

how is he doing a 12 inch barreled bolt rifle?? That would require permits. I dont know of any caliber that still hauls the oats at 400 yards with a 12 inch barrel. The 4570 has killed LOTS of game at long range. A ruger american in 450 bushmaster would do the same. As would any of the 77s they chambered in the ruger short mags. Or a nice 20 inch barreled 300wsm. Heck, as would a 308. i do agree with you on the ar10. Im on my third. First two went down the road because just like you said there a beast to carry all day. I ended up building another and dont ask me why. ive used it for crop damage shooting where i can pull my truck up and set up a bench and blaze away. But im sure not carrying it around in deer season. To me 400 yards is the realm of magnums. If i know im going to be faced with 400-500 yard shots i take the proper tool out which is usually a 7 or 300 mag. If its 2-300 yards and i want to use an ar it would be my grendel or hamr ar15. If its short range and something like pigs ect its my beowolf. Much to do about nothing if you ask me. But like was said any gun sold today is a win for us.

[Idaho45guy]

how is he doing a 12 inch barreled bolt rifle?? That would require permits. I dont know of any caliber that still hauls the oats at 400 yards with a 12 inch barrel.

This article addresses that, but I mistakenly said 400 yards rather than 300 yards...

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/8-6-creedmoor/

"Now I guess you’re wondering if it does in fact perform. I’d say so, out of a 12.5” barrel the 8.6 Creedmoor with a 155GR bullet at 2500FPS brings 2,100 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. With supersonic loads, it will outperform a 18” barreled .308 Winchester out to 300 yards.

Using 300+ grain expanding subsonic loads, the 8.6 Creedmoor generates 650+ ft. lbs. at the muzzle and is still maintaining 550 ft. lbs. out at 600 yards. For reference, that is more energy than a 45ACP at the muzzle…"

[JohnH]

This article I found explains clearly the advantages and goals of this new cartridge. Comparing the .45 acp to this is like comparing a moped to a dump truck.

https://www.loaddevelopment.com/8-6-...-8-6-blackout/

Some notable excerpts...

"Why a New Cartridge?

Yes, it feels like every week someone is just necking some other cartridge up or down and “bringing out a whole new cartridge”, but this time, it is really a game-changer. The 8.6 BLK is not just an improvement on previous designs or a wildcat, it changes what was thought best for hunting cartridges and tactical military cartridges all together. It shows that large long bullets can work out of small cases, and even better, high energy effective hunt kills can be made out of short barrels, even at what would be considered long range distances for hunting."

"When loaded with a 210gr Barnes TTSX bullet at 2450fps from the short 12.5″ barrel, you only have around 1.4 MOA more drop at an incredible 300 yards than a usual 308 Win with a 168gr bullet would have, but with a whopping 300 ft/lbs more energy on target, and that all from a rifle short enough to fit in your backpack. That is just to show what it can achieve, however we doubt many people would hunt at such long range with it."

Thanks for the link.

[Jack Stanley]

The next thing we will "need" is a 9.3 , a 10m/m and a 11.25 blackout .

Jack

[cwtebay]

This article addresses that, but I mistakenly said 400 yards rather than 300 yards...

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/8-6-creedmoor/

"Now I guess you’re wondering if it does in fact perform. I’d say so, out of a 12.5” barrel the 8.6 Creedmoor with a 155GR bullet at 2500FPS brings 2,100 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. With supersonic loads, it will outperform a 18” barreled .308 Winchester out to 300 yards.

Using 300+ grain expanding subsonic loads, the 8.6 Creedmoor generates 650+ ft. lbs. at the muzzle and is still maintaining 550 ft. lbs. out at 600 yards. For reference, that is more energy than a 45ACP at the muzzle…"

There is a population of fellas that like what your friend does.
My nephew is an avid coyote derby hunter and has a 6mm Creedmoor in a bolt rifle that has a barrel that with a suppressor it's 15 and change. He likes to be able to get it up and going quickly, sacrifices little if any accuracy, but does give up some velocity. He's definitely game on out to 300 with that rig.


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[dverna]

Thanks for posting the link I45G.

But the comparison with the .308 is marketing BS. The more meaningful comparison would be with the .338 Federal, and then it will come up short. The market for a 12" hunting rifle that will take a suppressor must be a lot larger than I thought. Might need two $200 tax stamps and then add a $1000 for the suppressor on top of the base gun. Pushing over $2000 to get all the benefits.

Love the phrases "hunting in woods" and "busting through a doorway" in the same sentence.

If a hunter needs a short rifle and needs to hit something hard this makes a lot more sense for $700:

https://www.hinterlandoutfitters.com...t-p-78092.html.

Less expensive, better trajectory, and hits harder than the 8.6. But it would suck for close quarter combat. Then you need a different gun. So, the 8.6 might be just what the market for woods game hunters who storm buildings needs.

[Daekar]

This article addresses that, but I mistakenly said 400 yards rather than 300 yards...

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/8-6-creedmoor/

"Now I guess you’re wondering if it does in fact perform. I’d say so, out of a 12.5” barrel the 8.6 Creedmoor with a 155GR bullet at 2500FPS brings 2,100 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. With supersonic loads, it will outperform a 18” barreled .308 Winchester out to 300 yards.

Using 300+ grain expanding subsonic loads, the 8.6 Creedmoor generates 650+ ft. lbs. at the muzzle and is still maintaining 550 ft. lbs. out at 600 yards. For reference, that is more energy than a 45ACP at the muzzle…"

Those comparison numbers to. 308 performance sound a bit off. 155gr is solidly in the middle of 308 bullet weights, but the velocity they're citing for the 8.6 in a 12" barrel doesn't measure up to what a 308 will do with the same bullet weight in 18". The 308 will come out of the barrel faster with that weight bullet, will have greater sectional density, lower cross-sectional area, and (given equal bullet design) less drag. There is no reason to believe that a supersonic at that weight will maintain energy better at range than a 308. The advantage of the larger diameter bullet will only come in when even higher bullet weights which are impractical at the 308 diameter come into play.

Not that the 338 won't do the job, I'm sure it will. But it's not going to do the job better, not when compared to a 308 out of an 18" barrel. It might be better than 308 from a 12" barrel, but I don't have any data about that available and I don't believe that there is any reason for the majority of folks to put up with NFA nonsense for a long-range hunting rifle when the barrel length isn't a problem.

I have shot high-pressure rounds out of 12" barrels before and while those guns were handy, they were not meaningfully moreso in the context of long range shooting. The muzzle blast and report, on the other hand, was meaningfully worse.

[725]

I welcome these guys that make weird stuff. I doubt it will be a commercial success and does not seem to fill a gap in any particular performance area other than doing it in some esoteric fashion. Need, however, rarely is the point. Neat, perhaps, needed not so much. I'm not interested in a new platform when I have enough trouble trying to find brass in some of my old tried & true chamberings.

[JohnH]

how is he doing a 12 inch barreled bolt rifle?? That would require permits. I dont know of any caliber that still hauls the oats at 400 yards with a 12 inch barrel. The 4570 has killed LOTS of game at long range. A ruger american in 450 bushmaster would do the same. As would any of the 77s they chambered in the ruger short mags. Or a nice 20 inch barreled 300wsm. Heck, as would a 308. i do agree with you on the ar10. Im on my third. First two went down the road because just like you said there a beast to carry all day. I ended up building another and dont ask me why. ive used it for crop damage shooting where i can pull my truck up and set up a bench and blaze away. But im sure not carrying it around in deer season. To me 400 yards is the realm of magnums. If i know im going to be faced with 400-500 yard shots i take the proper tool out which is usually a 7 or 300 mag. If its 2-300 yards and i want to use an ar it would be my grendel or hamr ar15. If its short range and something like pigs ect its my beowolf. Much to do about nothing if you ask me. But like was said any gun sold today is a win for us.

IMO, and that doesn't mean much, this thing is aimed at the young guys in my club who are shooting subsonic 308 WIN out of bolt actions with pistol length barrels with cans attached. I asked one why not a 300 BLK and his reply, "Every one has one of those". Apparently there are enough of his crowd that even Winchester offers factory sub sonic ammo https://winchesterarmory.com/product...n-power-point/ . I could see myself 40 years ago chasing something like this 8.6, today it doesn't do anything I've not already done with something else.

I think we are at a place not unlike the men of the late 1880's early 1890's when cartridges like the 30-30, 30-40, 6.5x55, 7 and 8 Mauser began showing up. Those men had shot black powder and plain lead all of their lives and I'm sure that at least some sub set of them saw the 30-30 in the same light we see things like 25 and 300 WSM's. What the heck do you need that for??? They were trying to sell it to the wrong people and in the former case there was a real difference in technology, not so much in the latter.

I remember reading an editorial by Jan Libourel during the short lived life of those cartridges, he wrote two things that stuck with me 1) The gun industry is driven by novelty he went on to speak of how each "new development" be it in ammunition or firearms mechanics is brought forward as if it is the latest greatest thing that will usher in a whole new era in the firearms industry. 2) he wrote this, There is nothing he 300 WSM will do for me that the 30-06 in my closet won't He went on to write that were he a young man looking to buy his first hunting rifle that he could see the 300 WSM as a good choice as it did offer an improvement in accuracy, was lighter weight that it's older relative was more efficient, etc. But for an older more experienced shooter/hunter who had already invested in their firearms it offered nothing that would justify replacing them with it.

And therein is the difference between where we stand the place those men of the late 19th century stood. There were significant differences between the new advancements and offerings of those days and what had come before where for us today there is little that is new under the sun. This 8.6 and it's progeny (if it has any) are not going to herald in any new great advancement in arms or technology because it is not new technology, it is just a rearrangement of existing technology and as such doesn't offer anything the older arrangement doesn't offer, and the generation it is aimed at really doesn't know the difference. The generation it is aimed at is not the bolt action, lever action, Colt SAA crowd; it is the Glock and AR crowd. I can show up at the range with my Contender and at least one person under 40 will ask me what it is. When I show 'em a 30 Herrett case it leaves them speechless.

Some guys are going to pursue the 8.6 because of it's novelty. Some are going to pursue it because they don't know better. It's going to sell some product, but it ain't going to be another 300 Whisper, and it sure won't bring to the world what the 8x50R Lebel did.