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Thread: Newest cartridge sensation; 8.6 Blackout.

  1. #1
    Boolit Master





    Idaho45guy's Avatar
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    Newest cartridge sensation; 8.6 Blackout.

    Neighbor was babbling incoherently about this new cartridge he just had to have. Said he was going to get a bolt-action rifle chambered in it that had a folding stock and 10" barrel.

    I guess it was the talk of the town at the 2022 SHOT show last week.

    I don't care. I'll stick with my .308 and .30-06 AI.

    But, curious as to what the cartridge experts here thought about it and why it is the latest and greatest.

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...blackout-guns/

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Wow that's a fast twist rate!!!!
    It will be interesting to see how well that one goes as the heavier AR-10 pales in comparison to the popularity of its lighter brother.
    But isn't this essentially the 338 Federal with proposed heavier bullet weights? I need to get a look at the cartridge specs before I weigh that judgement though.

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Found it.

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    Boolit Grand Master








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    i dont see an advantage to it if your shooting subsonic over a black out and you have to carry around a rifle that weigths 2 or more lbs more. Now if it would fit in an ar15 instead of an ar10 it would be a cool full power round.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

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    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Another one of those things JD Jones did 30 years ago that has gone mainstream. That man should be getting royalties from the entire firearms industry. Now a 1:3 twist barrel, that should provide some interesting torque when fired.

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    Boolit Buddy 35isit's Avatar
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    I know a silhouette shooter that has one of those in a Contender. Made by J.D. he calls it his .338 Whisper. He uses 7br brass as his parent case.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Does the tight twist rate limit what bullet types are able to be used? I recall reading something by Ackley about "overspin" and bullets falling apart. I don't know enough about that vs. bullet construction....dang rabbit holes I keep tripping over.....

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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    Does the tight twist rate limit what bullet types are able to be used? I recall reading something by Ackley about "overspin" and bullets falling apart. I don't know enough about that vs. bullet construction....dang rabbit holes I keep tripping over.....

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    Some more info here. https://americangunalliance.com/2022...-firearm-blog/

    Faxon Firearms made the barrels for these 8.6 Blackout firearms. Now, these are not regular barrels and making them is probably quite challenging because in order to properly stabilize long and heavy 300-grain subsonic .338 caliber projectiles, the barrels have a 1:3″ twist rate! Yes, that’s one full rotation of the rifling in every three inches. The bores of these barrels look more like being internally threaded than rifled.

    The 1-3 twist appears to be for subsonic 300 grain loads.

    Not having shot a 1 -3 twist in a 338 this is just an educated guess but with more normal for the caliber bullet weights blowing up bullets from the centrifugal force of being over spun would appear to be a significant issue.

    Personally I am taking a wait and see approach on this one.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 01-24-2022 at 05:46 PM.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I saw this 8.6 on a shot show review of new things. is this going to be a game changer, like the inventions of browning or stoner. me personally, I really dont think so. might just be a flash in the pan and I'm sure there will be some limited interest by some that just gotta have it. but will it gain a mainstream following?

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Shawlerbrook's Avatar
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    I doubt it will become mainstream but if it’s an AR thing, it’s out of my sphere of interest.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Much ado about nothing. Just separates the "latest tactical" crowd from their money.

  12. #12
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    Even given that 300gr is pretty heavy for a 338 bullet, doesn't 1:3 seem a bit fast to everyone else? I mean, I'm pretty sure Meatpuppet shoots some 310gr boolits from a 357 Max which doesn't have a twist anywhere near that fast. Does the difference in diameter make that much of a difference in required twist?

    If you want to shoot heavy slugs suppressed, just get a 458 and be done with it. It doesn't matter what the drag coefficient on these things is, they're still going to fall like stones, and expensive specialized bullets are going to be required for strong terminal effects unless the bullet is already pretty wide.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    I was thinking the same in regard to twist. I haven't plugged anything into a stability calculator, but would think that a 1 in 7 or 1 in 6 would be plenty of twist. The factory twist on a Lapua is 1 in 10 or 1 in 9. 1:3 seems very excessive on twist.

    How much pressure would that fast a twist generate as you are really pushing that bullet hard into the rifling.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    And people still think there are no "useless" cartridges...LOL.

    Lloyd is correct. Come up wtih some a new round for an AR15 and it might stand a chance...and I mean might. A new round in AR10 is not going to get a lot of legs. The market is too small. Anything suppressed is going to have an effective range of 100 yards or so due to the rainbow trajectory. May as well get a .45 ACP carbine with 230 gr bullets.
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  15. #15
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    One of the commenters on TFB's article made a comment about specially-designed bullets which effectively use excessive bullet spin to improve terminal performance while remaining subsonic... so you impart additional kinetic energy via rotation while keeping linear movement slow enough for suppression. While that's a cool idea, I have never heard of such a thing nor can I imagine how it might be done. Is this something I should have heard of before now?
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    May as well get a .45 ACP carbine with 230 gr bullets.
    That sure as hell seems like a much simpler solution.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Daekar View Post
    That sure as hell seems like a much simpler solution.
    And the .45 ACP carbine is one heck of a lot cheaper with easy to get/make ammunition!!!

    Heck, I do not understand what is going on anymore. I see things that make no sense touted as "wonderful". I see folks spending tons of money and then not having ammunition or components. These are truly stupid people, and they whine like 8 year olds when things get tough and they are unprepared.

    I have not been on the AR forum in over two years. But there are "commandos" there who will wet their pants over this.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    And the .45 ACP carbine is one heck of a lot cheaper with easy to get/make ammunition!!!

    Heck, I do not understand what is going on anymore. I see things that make no sense touted as "wonderful". I see folks spending tons of money and then not having ammunition or components. These are truly stupid people, and they whine like 8 year olds when things get tough and they are unprepared.

    I have not been on the AR forum in over two years. But there are "commandos" there who will wet their pants over this.
    This article I found explains clearly the advantages and goals of this new cartridge. Comparing the .45 acp to this is like comparing a moped to a dump truck.

    https://www.loaddevelopment.com/8-6-...-8-6-blackout/

    Some notable excerpts...

    "Why a New Cartridge?

    Yes, it feels like every week someone is just necking some other cartridge up or down and “bringing out a whole new cartridge”, but this time, it is really a game-changer. The 8.6 BLK is not just an improvement on previous designs or a wildcat, it changes what was thought best for hunting cartridges and tactical military cartridges all together. It shows that large long bullets can work out of small cases, and even better, high energy effective hunt kills can be made out of short barrels, even at what would be considered long range distances for hunting."

    "When loaded with a 210gr Barnes TTSX bullet at 2450fps from the short 12.5″ barrel, you only have around 1.4 MOA more drop at an incredible 300 yards than a usual 308 Win with a 168gr bullet would have, but with a whopping 300 ft/lbs more energy on target, and that all from a rifle short enough to fit in your backpack. That is just to show what it can achieve, however we doubt many people would hunt at such long range with it."
    "Luck don't live out here. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer; they kill the weak ones..." Jeremy Renner in Wind River

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy todd9.3x57's Avatar
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    ho hum.........
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  20. #20
    Curious Caster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho45guy View Post
    This article I found explains clearly the advantages and goals of this new cartridge. Comparing the .45 acp to this is like comparing a moped to a dump truck.

    https://www.loaddevelopment.com/8-6-...-8-6-blackout/

    Some notable excerpts...

    "Why a New Cartridge?

    Yes, it feels like every week someone is just necking some other cartridge up or down and “bringing out a whole new cartridge”, but this time, it is really a game-changer. The 8.6 BLK is not just an improvement on previous designs or a wildcat, it changes what was thought best for hunting cartridges and tactical military cartridges all together. It shows that large long bullets can work out of small cases, and even better, high energy effective hunt kills can be made out of short barrels, even at what would be considered long range distances for hunting."

    "When loaded with a 210gr Barnes TTSX bullet at 2450fps from the short 12.5″ barrel, you only have around 1.4 MOA more drop at an incredible 300 yards than a usual 308 Win with a 168gr bullet would have, but with a whopping 300 ft/lbs more energy on target, and that all from a rifle short enough to fit in your backpack. That is just to show what it can achieve, however we doubt many people would hunt at such long range with it."
    So... I get that the cartridge has enough volume to push meaningful power. I mean, it's not anything groundbreaking, and doesn't illustrate any principles of cartridge design which weren't known already. We already knew that long bullets can work out of small cases and that good velocity can be gotten out of short barrels with the right powder. We already knew that bullets with good drag coefficients maintained energy well. If you want a cartridge that shoots 210gr bullets at 2500fps there are plenty of options and this seems a fine example of that.

    The thing that puzzles me is that they're playing this up as a revolutionary improvement in subsonic performance. It's just not, especially if you need a 1:3 twist barrel to achieve it. There is no way you're going to be pushing bullets out of that rapid twist at 2450fps without problems... it comes out to be... what, 588,000rpm? That is just BONKERS fast. Which means you need a whole other barrel for supers or you're shooting some exotic bullet which doesn't instantly self-destruct at that rate of revolution the moment it leaves the muzzle.

    If you're shooting these things subsonic, all that case capacity (or pressure headroom, whatever) doesn't matter a hill of beans. If you can't use the same barrel for subs that you do supers, then you are far better off using a whole different cartridge which will be cheaper and more performant in subsonic applications in the real world. Joe Public is not a member of Seal Team Six who can estimate wind drift and bullet drop by dipping their finger in the blood of their vanquished foes and feeling the movement of the air... nothing subsonic is a good long-range cartridge, there are just varying degrees of awfulness. That being the case you're better off with something that doesn't have a bat-**** crazy twist rate and can take even heavier bullets with a larger diameter: a 458 SOCOM, 450 Bushmaster, 50 Beowulf, etc.

    As far as the comparison to 45ACP, obviously it only applies to the subsonic performance. It's interesting to consider, though, that 45ACP is basically identical to 300BO at realistic engagement ranges. If I were to build a rifle specifically for suppressed use, I would actually prefer the 45ACP to the 300BO. They're going to carry the same amount of energy but the 45 is going to be a lot more effective at imparting it without exotic and expensive bullet contruction.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

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