Mauser 1871 bullets

[ascast]

Your "stalking rifle" is a reworked '71? Original loads will work best, PP with generous lube cookie. I hate PP'ing. I use RCBS 44-370. It drops around .448" +/-. Groove dia is up around 451+. Any boolits that big will not chamber for me. C&H have dies I call correct in that they size and expand for a .446 ish boolit. Others may not. The Lyman 446 is OK, I think they changed it a tad and the new don't work so good. I think RCBS made a 43-370 as well that drops about .439. You could go with powder coating and give us a full report. best of luck

[Gobeyond]

Answer me this then how am I supposed to get .454 inch of paper in the case? At .446. I could flare it, lube the bullet, size it before seating…. And then it’s going to be too big for chamber neck.

[uscra112]

Answer me this then how am I supposed to get .454 inch of paper in the case? At .446. I could flare it, lube the bullet, size it before seating…. And then it’s going to be too big for chamber neck.

You can't. You're not supposed to. Quit thinking in terms of the bullet diameter before firing having to be groove diameter. I posted it earlier. Dead soft bullets that expand on firing to fit the grooves.

[Gobeyond]

How come you guys don't just make ammo that duplicates the original stuff? That's what those rifles were designed to use and work very well with it. I haven't found a single antique rifle, especially military ones, that didn't perform best when loaded as intended.

You can't. You're not supposed to. Quit thinking in terms of the bullet diameter before firing having to be groove diameter. I posted it earlier. Dead soft bullets that expand on firing to fit the grooves.

So your saying that paper patch is what Mauser intended, and it could be 450 ish after 2 layers of paper. I guess I need a .436 to .440 bullet with .0025 paper. Invoice paper.

[sharps4590]

How come you guys don't just make ammo that duplicates the original stuff? That's what those rifles were designed to use and work very well with it. I haven't found a single antique rifle, especially military ones, that didn't perform best when loaded as intended.

Mine obviously isn't a military rifle. The original loads shot a foot apart from one barrel to another and, that was close. It took six months, three bullet molds and a half dozen powders before I finally found a duplex load that would shoot both barrels together. Ended up with 2 1/2 to 3 inch, composite groups at 75 yards with a 140 year old German double rifle with slightly pitted bores.

Original loads don't always work and, I wasn't there to see what the maker regulated the rifle with.

[KCSO]

I paper patched mine with slightly undersized slugs and FFg Black and had excellent results. Right at 4 inches at 100 yards with iron sights and that is the best I can do anymore. Paper patching is no problem when you get the trick down.

[Gobeyond]

I paper patched mine with slightly undersized slugs and FFg Black and had excellent results. Right at 4 inches at 100 yards with iron sights and that is the best I can do anymore. Paper patching is no problem when you get the trick down.

What was the final size? They obviously went into the case but how did you do it? Any problems. Big flare?

[uscra112]

For what it's worth: I pulled out one of my original Mauser rounds. The bullet mikes .443" over the patch. The lead itself will be smaller than that. The O.D. of the neck mikes .466".

I'm unwilling to pull down a round as these are collector items now.

Once again: These bullets are dead soft lead, swaged, not cast.

[Gobeyond]

For what it's worth: I pulled out one of my original Mauser rounds. The bullet mikes .443" over the patch. The lead itself will be smaller than that. The O.D. of the neck mikes .466".

I'm unwilling to pull down a round as these are collector items now.

Once again: These bullets are dead soft lead, swaged, not cast.

Thank you very helpful.

[Gobeyond]

How old is that ammo?

[uscra112]

Possibly 130 years. Pretty certainly more than 100. If I had a source on German headstamps I might get closer. This has the thick rim with the scalloped edge. The characters 12, 75, S and A are seen at the cardinal points of the compass, and the letters are raised, not incised as all modern ammo is. My little camera isn't good enough to get a closeup.

I've also got a few boxes of new ammo loaded by C.I.L. (Canadian Industries Limited) with a naked, grooved bullet. There were enough of these ancient Mausers around after WW2 that Canadian hunters were using them to shoot their winter meat.

I've been told, by a gunshow seller, that after the CIL ammo dried up, some of these old Mausers were rechambered to .45-70 by bunkhouse gunsmiths, but that's just hearsay.

[skeettx]

I load my 71/84 with .446 bullet sized with Javalina lube
and use 4198 powder.
Works great,
Mike

[Gobeyond]

Possibly 130 years. Pretty certainly more than 100. If I had a source on German headstamps I might get closer. This has the thick rim with the scalloped edge. The characters 12, 75, S and A are seen at the cardinal points of the compass, and the letters are raised, not incised as all modern ammo is. My little camera isn't good enough to get a closeup.

I've also got a few boxes of new ammo loaded by C.I.L. (Canadian Industries Limited) with a naked, grooved bullet. There were enough of these ancient Mausers around after WW2 that Canadian hunters were using them to shoot their winter meat.

I've been told, by a gunshow seller, that after the CIL ammo dried up, some of these old Mausers were rechambered to .45-70 by bunkhouse gunsmiths, but that's just hearsay.

I’ve heard that too about the 45-70. But they must have had different lands. It could be 71/84 ammo maybe. But it’s got good measurements for my way of think in’ . Something as a good goal to attain that might work in my gun. Paper patch seems the way to go but your ammo might be a little small for my bore but it solves how to sick em in the brass. Now I’m thinking again.
The bullet must be at least .435. Custom mold. I went another way with a .457 bullet sized to .450. Going to test that soon. Haven’t figured the best angle on the PP. Does someone know if .443 PP is big enough to shoot in a .457 groove? Seems not but I’ve been wrong before. Thanks for all your right on info @uscra112 . What paper do you suggest.

[Gobeyond]

I load my 71/84 with .446 bullet sized with Javalina lube
and use 4198 powder.
Works great,
Mike

Yah your The Guy I wanted to talk to. If I could duplicate that PP round, would it be good enough for my bore?

[cosmoline one]

Gobeyond,
Does your bolt close on a round with this .450" sized boolit?

[Gobeyond]

Mine obviously isn't a military rifle. The original loads shot a foot apart from one barrel to another and, that was close. It took six months, three bullet molds and a half dozen powders before I finally found a duplex load that would shoot both barrels together. Ended up with 2 1/2 to 3 inch, composite groups at 75 yards with a 140 year old German double rifle with slightly pitted bores.

1880s? Early or late? I bet you didn’t want to use BP in it, or maybe that’s why the light pitting. That’s a heckuva story and investment. Congratulations on your success! "……………

Original loads don't always work and, I wasn't there to see what the maker regulated the rifle with.

That’s a great accomplishment and investment. Is it old enough to shoot. BP in?

[Gobeyond]

Gobeyond,
Does your bolt close on a round with this .450" sized boolit?

All still strictly theory.

[uscra112]

Once AGAIN: The Mauser, (and some large-caliber American rifles of the 1870s and 1880s) used a paper patched bullet that was smaller than groove diameter, on purpose. The chamber necks were also small, to hold the bullet centered. The whole idea hinged on the bullets being made of dead soft lead, which would obturate (swell up) on firing to fill the grooves. Mauser did it because a battle rifle had to be able the chamber a cartridge into a fouled throat. The Americans copied Mauser. Paul Matthews covered this in his book on paper patching.

You ought to be able to get the same obturation from an undersize grooved/lubricated bullet if the bullet is soft enough. Pure lead with just a hint of tin to aid fillout in the mould.

In all events you have to give up the idea that you bullet has to be groove diameter or bigger. Correct doctrine for more modern cartidges, but not for the Mauser.

Use the biggest bullet that will let the cartridge chamber. Use a fairly fast powder if you're loading smokeless. Blue Dot, not 4198, for example.

[sharps4590]

Venturino covered that as well, usrca, when working with I think an original 44-77 Sharps, a cartridge quite similar to the 11.15 X 60R.

That’s a great accomplishment and investment. Is it old enough to shoot. BP in?

Go, and whoever posted firs, I couldn't find your reply. I apologize.

It's 1870's, MAYBE 1880's and is definitely a BP rifle. The difficulty was attaining enough velocity to bring the barrels together. Grahame Wright in his book, "Shooting the British Double Rifle" gives examples of several BP doubles that had to use duplex loads to achieve enough velocity to regulate. Well, ballistics don't care if they're British, German or American so I ended up with a duplex load of 5 grs. of SR-4759 under 68 grs. of the old GOEX cartridge, ignited by Federal 215 primers. All that under the Lyman bullet at 350 grs., not sized but lubed only. Swiss wouldn't regulate either and Old Eynsford came the closest but they weren't good enough to hunt with...and barely to plink with and hit anything. I have about 1 1/2 lbs. left of the old GOEX Ctg. If I outlive it, I guess I'll have to try to work up a load with the few pounds of Old Eynsford I've hoarded. Schuetzen has showed promise as well.

I'll say this, those duplex loads shoot about as clean as smokeless, even at that low percentage.

[Gobeyond]

Venturino covered that as well, usrca, when working with I think an original 44-77 Sharps, a cartridge quite similar to the 11.15 X

Go, and whoever posted firs, I couldn't find your reply. I apologize.

It's 1870's, MAYBE 1880's and is definitely a BP rifle. The difficulty was attaining enough velocity to bring the barrels together. Grahame Wright in his book, "Shooting the British Double Rifle" gives examples of several BP doubles that had to use duplex loads to achieve enough velocity to regulate. Well, ballistics don't care if they're British, German or American so I ended up with a duplex load of 5 grs. of SR-4759 under 68 grs. of the old GOEX cartridge, ignited by Federal 215 primers. All that under the Lyman bullet at 350 grs., not sized but lubed only. Swiss wouldn't regulate either and Old Eynsford came the closest but they weren't good enough to hunt with...and barely to plink with and hit anything. I have about 1 1/2 lbs. left of the old GOEX Ctg. If I outlive it, I guess I'll have to try to work up a load with the few pounds of Old Eynsford I've hoarded. Schuetzen has showed promise as well.

I'll say this, those duplex loads shoot about as clean as smokeless, even at that low percentage.

What size boolits are you shootings @sharps4590?