.44 Special "target" WC from a snubby vs .38 Special FBI Load from service revolver

[pettypace]

I try to understand these types of posts but sometime I think someone runs across the Fairbairn and Sykes and Fackler experiment and think the are new or something to that effect. .

Which "Fairbairn and Sykes and Fackler experiment" is that?

[44MAG#1]

Which "Fairbairn and Sykes and Fackler experiment" is that?

Just anything you want to dig up. I may have used the wrong wording but you get the idea. Models, experiments, theory, idea belief, cobbling, discussion, feeling, dream, epiphany, supposition, vision, ETC..

[pettypace]

Just anything you want to dig up. I may have used the wrong wording but you get the idea. Models, experiments, theory, idea belief, cobbling, discussion, feeling, dream, epiphany, supposition, vision, ETC..

Not exactly the words that come to mind when I think of guys like Fairbairn and Sykes and Fackler.

[44MAG#1]

Not exactly the words that come to mind when I think of guys like Fairbairn and Sykes and Fackler.

Your words may be different. To each his own. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet. Or some such words. I am probably incorrect even on that.

[44MAG#1]

This is my answer to carry ammo that I like. Why, one may ask. Just because.

[44MAG#1]

The Hammer.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Hammer.

Ok that will leave a nice 7/16" hole behind.

Randy

[44MAG#1]

Ok that will leave a nice 7/16" hole behind.

Randy

Thank you, I think. How much of a hole will the 45 Auto leave behind?

[44MAG#1]

Or maybe we could go this route. Liberty Civil Defense 9MM or an Underwood 45 Auto Extreme Defense.

[deltaenterprizes]

I have been loading my S&W 38 snubby with 4.9 gr WW231 under a 158 gr SWC in W/W lead for many years and have dispatched a lot of animals with it, such as feral hogs and varmints caught in traps. This is supposed to duplicate the FBI load and in every case I can recall, the bullet went all the way through. Of course, I am quite close - almost point blank range, but the penetration is still there. I shoot hogs in the head and never through the hide shield but I'm sure it would at least go to the opposite side under the skin.

The FBI load has a hollow point bullet!

[JoeJames]

I may be, and probably am old school, but I think a .430" SWC already has the inherent diameter that lesser calibers try to aspire to with hollow point bullets. But my standard 44 Special load also has the weight on them at 240 grains. Lee Cast .430" 240 grain SWC’s with 6.8 grains of Unique averages 894 fps in my Ruger NM Blackhawk 4 1/4".

[44MAG#1]

What does VIRGEL say?
He is the last word.

[deltaenterprizes]

The Hammer.

There was a New York City cop and author who designed a bullet like that with a split half way down the middle so that it would open up and stop over penetration!
I can’t remember his name.
He loved the 44 Special for defensive work!

[Stacts]

I think it's interesting that so many conclusions are drawn from the performance of a single bullet of a single caliber from a single gun from a single encounter in which many dozens of bullets of varying calibers and from varying guns were fired. Every firearm has the potential to deliver lethal force.

To decide if a caliber/gun/bullet/cartridge is sufficient to save one's life, more data than a single bullet should probably be considered. Throughout its many decades of service, the 9x19 has proven itself reliable and deadly. Throughout its many decades of service, the .45 ACP has proven itself reliable and deadly. Through its many decades of service, the .38 spcl has proven itself accurate and deadly.

I would not consider caliber choices made before the advent of smokeless powder as being particularly relevant to the decisions being made today. Smokeless powder produces much higher pressures and velocities than black. Today, we are spoiled with a cornucopia of bullet designs to choose from. In the 19th century, there were two choices: Round Ball or Round Nose Minnie Ball.

Today, we know that hollow point performance contributes to the success rate of a given caliber to stop a threat. We know that hollow point performance is dependent upon velocity. We, as hand loaders, know that velocity is dependent upon powder choice, powder charge, and barrel length (assuming a standard/unchanging boolit weight). A change in any of those three variable necessitates a re-verification of the chosen boolit or J-word.

If a non-hollow point is chosen, less importance is placed upon velocity to achieve the requisite performance.

[44MAG#1]

I think it's interesting that so many conclusions are drawn from the performance of a single bullet of a single caliber from a single gun from a single encounter in which many dozens of bullets of varying calibers and from varying guns were fired. Every firearm has the potential to deliver lethal force.

To decide if a caliber/gun/bullet/cartridge is sufficient to save one's life, more data than a single bullet should probably be considered. Throughout its many decades of service, the 9x19 has proven itself reliable and deadly. Throughout its many decades of service, the .45 ACP has proven itself reliable and deadly. Through its many decades of service, the .38 spcl has proven itself accurate and deadly.

I would not consider caliber choices made before the advent of smokeless powder as being particularly relevant to the decisions being made today. Smokeless powder produces much higher pressures and velocities than black. Today, we are spoiled with a cornucopia of bullet designs to choose from. In the 19th century, there were two choices: Round Ball or Round Nose Minnie Ball.

Today, we know that hollow point performance contributes to the success rate of a given caliber to stop a threat. We know that hollow point performance is dependent upon velocity. We, as hand loaders, know that velocity is dependent upon powder choice, powder charge, and barrel length (assuming a standard/unchanging boolit weight). A change in any of those three variable necessitates a re-verification of the chosen boolit or J-word.

If a non-hollow point is chosen, less importance is placed upon velocity to achieve the requisite performance.

If you were to condense what you said into a couple sentences what would it be?

[Stacts]

If you were to condense what you said into a couple sentences what would it be?

Search for multiple tests conducted by different people of whatever bullet/caliber/gun you want. If all your data come from a single source, it is easy to be misled. Never put all your faith in a single event, test, or report.

[44MAG#1]

Search for multiple tests conducted by different people of whatever bullet/caliber/gun you want. If all your data come from a single source, it is easy to be misled. Never put all your faith in a single event, test, or report.

Thanks. In my 70 years I have found most people are going to believe what they want to believe or find convenient to believe based on their agenda.
This includes me.
And most I know.

[Jtarm]

Well let's say a drugged up thug is coming through your door and you center his brain with the 22LR would that more likely be more effective than a 12 Guage through the foot or hand? I know that is extreme examples but.......

Would you rather for someone to be armed with something they can handle well or something they can't handle well?
A couple pops in the brain from a 22RF would probably ruin the shootees day. Personally I carry a 45 Auto. But sometimes carry a 9MM
Never a 22RF and I don't think Walmart would like me to carry my shotgun slung over my shoulder.

OK, which is it? Drugged up thug at home, or wandering the aisles of a big box?

In the first scenario, I’ll take the 12 gauge, thank you. It’s a pretty odd duck who can shoot a .22 handgun better than a shotgun.

A shooter incapable of making center-of-mass hits with a center fire at normal SD range (under 10 yards) isn’t going make a double-tap to the brain with a .22 while under real duress. Actually, I doubt if there’s many folks not named Jim Cirillo who could pull that off.

A head shot that penetrates to the brain is actually pretty tricky, especially with a .22. With an opponent facing you, it has to be pretty close to center and 90-degrees, otherwise the bullet deflects off the skull, which is a surprisingly tough nut to crack.

[44MAG#1]

OK, which is it? Drugged up thug at home, or wandering the aisles of a big box?

In the first scenario, I’ll take the 12 gauge, thank you. It’s a pretty odd duck who can shoot a .22 handgun better than a shotgun.

A shooter incapable of making center-of-mass hits with a center fire at normal SD range (under 10 yards) isn’t going make a double-tap to the brain with a .22 while under real duress. Actually, I doubt if there’s many folks not named Jim Cirillo who could pull that off.

A head shot that penetrates to the brain is actually pretty tricky, especially with a .22. With an opponent facing you, it has to be pretty close to center and 90-degrees, otherwise the bullet deflects off the skull, which is a surprisingly tough nut to crack.

Actually I was trying to sooth the shot placement over all else guys so they would feel good.
Now, condense what you were saying to maybe one sentence.
I have a 12 gauge loaded and ready at home. The shot placement over all else guys were going to rear their heads soon so I just helped them out

[Ed K]

Ok, it's been over two months. That should serve as sufficient intro to the "44 Special "target" WC from a snubby vs .38 Special FBI Load from service revolver" discussion.