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Thread: Accuracy

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Accuracy

    Hey everyone, I have a friend (and I’m very new to this) I’ve been talking to about casting and the statement came up “cast boolits aren’t accurate” so out of curiosity and a good answer for my buddy, how accurate can cast boolits be? We normally hunt up in PA with a .270 or 7mm. What range would they start going to slow due to generally slower velocity? With such varying alloy and molds and PC etc etc how do you determine adequate impact velocity for proper expansion?


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  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master


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    There's not much you can do to determine their effectiveness, but to try them yourself. You can find info here on what others have found, and make generalizations. A cast rifle bullet can expand at lower velocities than a jacketed bullet will, using a hollow point they can expand even subsonic, but the exact number will differ based on your alloy. There is a small group of guys who love to push cast bullets fast, 2700+ fps. For the most part though, you are probably looking at 2000-2200 fps for good accuracy in a plain old rifle. By accuracy, you are usually going to see 1 1/2" to 2" at 100 yard accuracy from a good load. You can do better, but you can do a lot worse too. In a 270, you are looking at about 200-250 yards for an effective range.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Simple answer.

    In the calibers you mentioned, you would be foolish to shoot cast bullets if you want accuracy and effective hunting performance. No cast bullet can match the performance of jacketed bullets in those, and most calibers.

    Jacketed bulletins for serious work are cheap.

    If you want to plink with cast, go for it. You may get lucky, but most likely you will become frustrated and waste a bunch of money and time.

    If you want to hunt with cast, start with .35 caliber rifles and limit shots to 250 yards.
    Don Verna


  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Simple answer.

    In the calibers you mentioned, you would be foolish to shoot cast bullets if you want accuracy and effective hunting performance. No cast bullet can match the performance of jacketed bullets in those, and most calibers.

    Jacketed bulletins for serious work are cheap.

    If you want to plink with cast, go for it. You may get lucky, but most likely you will become frustrated and waste a bunch of money and time.

    If you want to hunt with cast, start with .35 caliber rifles and limit shots to 250 yards.
    Thanks for the answer! I think eventually I’ll want to hunt with them but for now plinking will be good. So on the other hand is how accurate should I expect? My first goal is a milk jug at 50 meters with a 30-30. Is that crazy?


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  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILostMyGoat View Post
    Thanks for the answer! I think eventually I’ll want to hunt with them but for now plinking will be good. So on the other hand is how accurate should I expect? My first goal is a milk jug at 50 meters with a 30-30. Is that crazy?


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    A better way to ask it is at what point do I say “this is so inaccurate I’m doing something wrong” vs “this is inherent inaccuracy and acceptable “


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  6. #6
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    I use cast boolits for both target shooting and hunting wild hogs. My scoped '06 is probably the best performer in both accuracy and performance on game. The biggest difference is the range that you can effectively achieve "one shot" kills.

    10 shots at 100yds with 30.06 and 210gn Lyman boolit


    Also use the big 50/70 with open sights and if you limit range to a max of 100yds, it also shoots wit acceptable accuracy.

    10 shots with 50/70 and open sights
    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by ILostMyGoat View Post
    Thanks for the answer! I think eventually I’ll want to hunt with them but for now plinking will be good. So on the other hand is how accurate should I expect? My first goal is a milk jug at 50 meters with a 30-30. Is that crazy?


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    Of course not. 30-30 is one cartridge that can only be improved with a cast bullet. The limiting factor will generally be the sights, unless you have a scope. If you had one of the rare bolt action scoped 30-30's, or even a Savage 99 or something like that, a milk jug at 300 yards is not a crazy thought.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    I have a 223 bolt gun that is more accurate at 100 yards with CB's than it is with jacketed (except Sierra match projectiles). It is a 1/12 twist. It only took 18 months to get it dialed in and am always amazed at the tiny groups around .6". My 338WM bounces 5 gallon paint buckets at 700 yards with iron sights in the morning when my aging eyes are fresh (can't see the buckets after 10 AM). MSM above is absolutely right about the 30/30 on milk jugs at 300 yards. Right out of the box my "bought-on-a-whim" cheap Remington 770 .308 shot a group right at .8" with a tumble lubed cast boolit from a Lee mold.. Every rifle barrel has a personality with CB's which you will have to learn. If you have reloaded jacketed much in the past, you will learn that shooting CB's adds several new variables to make life interesting including alloy, lubrication style, shape of boolit, and extreme effect of twist. Just don't expect "screaming banshee" velocities from CB's. Most of mine shoot best between 1750 and 2000 fps. My Model 70 .270 with iron sights shoots CB's very well with 128's from an NOE gas check mold holding right at 1.4" at 100 yards when my eyes cooperate with an MV of about 1900. I am currently testing a plain base 130 gr in the 270 and am surprised at the good results at a leisurely MV of 1320 fps (it starts leading at 1400 fps).
    Last edited by quilbilly; 01-19-2022 at 12:38 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILostMyGoat View Post
    Thanks for the answer! I think eventually I’ll want to hunt with them but for now plinking will be good. So on the other hand is how accurate should I expect? My first goal is a milk jug at 50 meters with a 30-30. Is that crazy?


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    I think you should set your goals a little higher than that. I shot this group at 50 yards because I was at a public range and the 50 yard line was what was available to set up my chronograph. My main goal was to determine velocities of the load. Thirty caliber and larger are easier than smaller but accuracy doesn’t have to be a problem. This is from a slow twist barrel.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Just this past week I completed a 300 yard range on my property and my goal for this load is a 3.00” ten shot group at that distance for this load.
    Last edited by oldblinddog; 01-19-2022 at 01:14 AM.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    This is from a normal 10” twist. Same bullet but at 100 yards. Remington factory barrel.
    Attachment 294807

    Shot number five shows that bullets should be sorted for weight.
    Last edited by oldblinddog; 01-19-2022 at 01:22 AM.
    USMC 6638

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master
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    The world record 10 shot group fired in Hunting Rifle class is .699” at 100 yards. There were likely thousands of groups fired to get one that small and by folks who take the sport seriously.

    It is possible people who do not compete shoot better groups, but I use verifiable data to establish expectations.

    As a beginner, you should set realistic goals. If you can average 4 MOA for five shot groups that is a good start. You can tune from there. Hitting a milk jug every shot at 50 m is easy....at 300 yards....not so much.

    When I started shooting cast in .30/30 and .308 I was naive. I was casting pistol bullets that grouped 10 shots into less than 4 MOA from a semi-auto pistol. After a few trips to the range 30 miles away I got very frustrated. I did not know how to produce a good cast rifle bullet. That was over 20 years ago. This forum has given me more knowledge but I now have no incentive to do the work needed.

    If you expect to cast bullets, GC them and size them you will get mediocre results. Be prepared to visual check rifle bullets for slight imperfections and weight sort every bullet. You may need to experiment with alloy, lube, bullet designs, finial sizing and COL. One big mistake I made was trying for too high a velocity. If I were to try again, I would start in the 1400-1600 fps area.

    Good luck
    Don Verna


  12. #12
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    4 MOA is realistic for a regular old lever action rifle for sure. For a likely bolt action 270, that's rather poor. I didn't just pick up a mold and start center punching targets either, but it sure didn't take me that long to figure out how to make it happen. I could produce under 2 MOA with a 308 rifle in my first year casting. You know me, I do 5-5 shot groups, so that's not a random 3 shot lucky either. But as you say, it's not like you just cast some bullets and have at it either. It's a learning curve to know how to sort bullets, how to modify your process to load those bullets, figuring out the best size, finding a good lube, etc. Luckily this forum gets you through at least half of that.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Shopdog's Avatar
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    It was on another forum a month or two ago. Same sort of discussion but it was about cast in 308. Instead of talking about it;

    I grabbed a bone stock R700VS and sent exactly 10 rounds downrange. No foulers,no warm up groups.... 10 shots. This wasn't some elaborate BR bag setup either,not to mention the rather shakey table I shoot off of. Range right out the shop's door.

    This is NOT my best rig,by any stretch. Have HV loads in... 22-250,7-08,and an especially deadly straight 6mmR that ROUTINELY shoot into tiny bragging groups. Believe what you want.... but,my experience over the past,almost 50 years of shooting cast is that I'm not giving up much at all to JB's on accuracy. Working now with a 260Rem Brux barrel that is running around 1/4" 100 yard 5 shot groups.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Screenshot_20220119-031046_Gallery.jpg  

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    I wouldn't bother with any goals, just get out and shoot. You'll be surprised at what a cast bullet can actually do, I know I was. Bought a lot of molds for the 30cal's over the decades and never really used them. The only real casting I did was for the 03-A3's to play around with on reduced targets @ the 100yd line (+/- 3 moa). Ended up buying a copy of the H&G "ness" bullet (mp mold) that is known to have accuracy issues due to nose slump. Wanted it for +/- 50yd on groundhogs. Of course, I used a 30-A3 for testing with that ness bullet.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Always followed threads on this website with all the fantastic rifle/cast bullet shooters, nothing short of impressive. Was at a gunshow and there was a Canadian shooting team rifle sitting there cheap, a single shot T950 chambered in 308w. I knew the bishop's stock the T950 has from shooting winchester 52 d's. That T950 has a savage action so I decided to buy it. 1st thing I did was buy a cheap Ebco bbl (1 in 10 twist) and put it on that T950. I have a bunch of mixed 308w nato brass laying around and decided to start going thru the different molds casting and testing @ 50yds to begin with. Was actually hoping for 2 moa or less @ 50yds, ended up with 10-shot groups like these.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Bought another bbl a 1 in 11 twist with a .301/308 that had a chamber cut for the 175gr smk's. It didn't do well with cast bullets but it didn't matter, wanted it for the 175gr jacketed bullets. Asked on this website and twist rates for cast bullets and ended up buying a 1 in 14 twist that has a standard puma taper and is 30" long with a .336 match chamber cut in it. Again not the best setup for cast, the short necked 308w case, bbl on the skinny side that heats up quickly and the 30" length is like a whip. At the end of the day that bbl has extremely small accuracy nodes and is setup for the 155gr smk jacketed bullets.

    Well it isn't the "ideal" cast bullet setup, nor do I have any real knowledge with cast bullets in rifles. There was a couple people that got together and designed a bullet for hv use and they considered 2moa or less as the "accuracy standard" to try for. Seemed reasonable enough so I bought a lee 6-cavity mold, the 160gr tl bullet and cast a bunch of bullets up. This is what the 1st outing looked like with head to head testing PC VS traditional lubed bullets.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Learned 2 things from that 1st outing. Didn't have enough lube on those traditionally lubed bullets and 2 moa is child's play @ 100yds with hv cast bullets. Put a coat of 45/45/10 on the lubed bullets and retested.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    A close-up of the 2600fps+ 10-shot group @ 100yds.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Slowing the same bullet down, 10-shot moa accuracy @ 100yds.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    This is why I say don't bother with goals and just get out and shoot. My 3moa @ 50yds goal was a joke as was the 2moa @ 100yds using mixed Nato brass no less.

    I haven't really pursued accuracy with cast bullets in the rifles, have the molds/equipment/rifle. I'm sure that anyone that try's cast in their rifle/rifles will be surprised with the performance they are able to achieve. Those targets aren't hand/cherry picked by any means nor do I have a lot of knowledge/time shooting cast bullets in rifles.

    Basically, if I can do it anyone can. Good luck

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I lost my goat, I hope it shows up at my place to chew down the out of control honeysuckle
    all joking aside, its one thing that cast bullets have been used for competitive shooting for--decades-- in fact there are quite a few bullet mold designs developed specifically for silhouette shooting.
    but to think your going to jump into casting overnight for your 270win or 7mm mag and be shooting 100 meters into the bullseye at 3000 fps its not likely that will happen.
    if that is your goal I would think that a good place to start is to read/study veral smith's book "jacketed performance with cast bullets"
    in some rifle calibers with factory barrel twist rates you may be limited in the velocity you can get accurate loads with.
    since you seem to want to learn about casting and shooting effectively with what you can create here is a link to some of the best free written resources on the internet.

    http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm
    Last edited by farmbif; 01-19-2022 at 09:39 AM.

  16. #16
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    There are some cartridges where cast bullets of equal weight can be loaded to duplicate factory ballistics and equal or better accuracy for hunting. The 270 and 7mm's are not among them. I had a 270 and have two 7mms (7x57 and 280 Rem) and while I have and do shoot cast bullets in them for hunting, I use jacketed bullets. The use of the cast bullets requires a lot less velocity and the bullets have a lower BC which means the practical hunting range is limited to 100 - 150 yards. That certain is not the forte of those cartridges. Conversely with my bolt action 35 Remington I push a 200 gr cast bullet at 2400 fps with 2 moa accuracy. That makes it practical for hunting out to 250 yards where the retained velocity is still 1600+ fps.

    Farmbif is correct, unless you are well experienced at casting and shooting cast bullets you will not "get there" where you're asking to go.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  17. #17
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    I would have never thought to ask the question in the OP myself, but based on the answers I've read so far it actually makes me proud of the results I've been achieving with my boolits. The phrase "fit is king" certainly seems to be true in my experience, and I have seen accuracy sometimes deteriorate significantly when trying to push velocity above 1500fps with my boolits and guns, but I have almost always been able to play with powder charges and find something that shoots straight even though I have been extremely limited in the powders I have to play with.

    I got into casting because it seems to fit my usage profile perfectly. I don't need to shoot long shots with high-speed bullets, and I like to be able to shoot 50 to 100 rounds in the backyard whenever the weather is nice. Doing that with jacketed hunting bullets would be crazy expensive, but doing it with hunting-capable cast bullets is downright cheap. I think Don's answer captured things perfectly: unless the OP decides that they want to start plinking with their 270, they'd be best off just using modern jacketed bullets while hunting.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    In my experience cast is just as accurate as jacketed and in some cases more. Cast does have speed limits, and as long as those are respected you should do fine. Calibers smaller than 30 are another level of knowledge. Go back up to post #9, the 30xcb bullet he is using was designed for higher velocity from the start and to some degree with slower twist than 1:10 but will work in ten twist as well.
    As others have said your goal of milk jug at 50 is way low even for a beginner.
    As far as a suitable impact velocity that is decided by your alloy and bullet design. As one member already said the 35's are good killers and with a 2.5% to 3% tin and 4% antimony is strong enough with a gas check to push the velocity up to jacketed speeds and will roll the nose on a flat point boolit down to around 1500 fps. If you want a softer alloy a 3/3 tin/antimony will lower the impact down a couple hundred fps but will also lower your max velocity and still maintain accuracy.

    I think with the calibers listed I would opt for a cup point with a 3/3 or 3/4 alloy and limit hunting shot to 100 yds. If you can maintain accuracy at 100 and reach the 1900 and above you can extend your hunting range to the limit of your accuracy, you will just have to test it at 125/150/etc... I don't test beyond 150 because I'll never have a shot that far on our property.

    Most of my 30's and 35's the accuracy is between 1750 and 1950 as a general rule. I don't chase velocity, I chase accuracy. Generally speaking at 100 yds I can maintain under 1.5 inch 5 shot group. Some guns a little better. I use standard boolit designs. Lee 30-150 flat,
    Lyman 30-173 flat, Lyman 30-200 pointed(314299) and RCBS 35-200 flat. Inside the limits of cast almost all our hunt club members agree the cast boolits kill whitetail just as quick if not quicker than factory.

    The only problem with sub 30 calibers for hunting is the meplat is not very wide, which is why I suggested a cup point. I am not saying that a 7mm hole on two sides won't kill a deer, it will if put in the right spot. For me and only me I limit myself to 30 cal and up. 35 being my favorite. As far as your question, "how do you determine adequate impact velocity for proper expansion". That one question is so loaded it could take a long discussion involving "what alloy" "what boolit" and the list goes on. All I can give you from personal hunting experience is this...Min. 2.5% tin with a 3 to 4% antimony will start to roll the lee 150 flat around 1500 fps no bone hit. Hit bone equals more expansion.
    A 3/3 alloy at the same speed almost doubles the size of the exit wound. All our 3/3 has been in the 35 Remington and exit holes with one rib hit measured over 1.5 inches. We have only recovered two boolits and both retained 198 grains with a starting weight of 206 grains.
    Short version is more tin equals bigger holes but also means slower launch speeds Generally speaking, there are always exceptions. As you move up in caliber like 44,45 etc... a 20:1 alloy makes a great hunting alloy with much lower impact speeds. I have never had any luck with 20:1 or 16:1 in 35 or 30 cal. rifles.

    Sorry for the long answer to a short question but I think if you are willing to invest the time and $ you will not be under gunned with cast. You just have to have a different set set of limitations compared to jacketed on the calibers you asked about.
    Tony

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Yes, they can be accurate. FWIW, a .30-30 is why I started casting for my .308. Hit a golf ball at 75yd with 3 consecutive shots (I was probably just lucky ). For hunting, consider the ranges at which your .30-30 has adequate 'power'. I'd agree with above that 200-250 would be my max range, maybe 300 if the load is right and I can figure the wind.

    First target is not 'normal'. It did surprise me since it was smaller than the 5 shot group using 175 match kings on the same day. The second target is more 'normal'.

    PS these are powder coated bullets

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by charlie b; 01-19-2022 at 11:42 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I am goal orientated so when I do something I have an expectation. Mine was 2" at 100 yards and I was not even close. The gun was capable (M700 that shot jacketed well), I was capable (captain of university Rifle Team), but my cast bullets were not. My first attempt was almost 50 years ago with a .308. I used once fired commercial cases, linotype, a single cavity Lyman 311334 (no longer made but touted as a great .308 bullet), 50/50 lube, Lyman GC, bullet sized to .310, weight sorted to +/- .1 gr and an M die. Back then, I was poor. Saving money on bullets was the driver but I demanded decent accuracy. I did not mind using a single cavity if it would work better, and back in the dark ages, it was thought dual cavity molds were not the best for making accurate rifle bullets.

    The success stories posted above are impressive. Averaging 1/4" groups with cast is amazing! Heck not many can average 1/2" groups with jacketed bullets. My caution is not to set unrealistic expectations based on what a handful of people have been able to accomplish. Shooting like that takes more than a great rifle with a great load. I could not average 1/4" groups even with a perfect platform. I lack the skill.

    Just a suggestion. Take the rifle you want to shoot with cast but take your "best" jacketed reloads and fire five 5-shot groups. Take your time to release a perfect shot every time let the barrel cool after every group. Put every group on one target and save that target. It is the "best" your load, rifle and you can do. Take the average groups size from that test...say it is 1.25". Too many of us remember the one tiny group we shot and not the many bigger ones. You want a representative average. BTW, three shot groups are useless and 10 shot groups are better. The problems with five 10 shoot groups are time to shoot, cost (if money is tight), and maintaining focus. Anyway, a realistic goal for your cast loads may be twice your jacketed groups. In this example, 2.5".

    Read a bunch of stuff and try to "do everything right". Load some cast bullets and go shoot. If you beat 2.5"....BINGO!!! You may be satisfied, and you are done! If not, and you want to do better, it can be a lot of fun if you are wired that way. Some people love trying different alloys, different bullets molds, different bullet sizes, different lubes, different loads etc. I am not like that and explains why I failed.

    FWIW, I would start with your .30/30.

    Good luck.
    Don Verna


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check