What to make of an American Rifleman artilce

[Tar Heel]

Looking up....speaking of Clark bros....

Somewhere around the late 70's I had been casting with the ole Coleman stove for a few years. Used to go to Clark bros when going by there. On their shelf was a used 10# Lyman pot,and a box with some moulds,handles,and parts. Since I had been a good customer of theirs for years(started as a youngster with dad)....

I asked Mr Clark what the skinny was on the old Lyman pot? He said nobody's casting anymore,and if I wanted it.... just take it. So "things" haven't changed all that much? And yes,am still using that 10#'er.

I used to work there and the family was wonderful. On Sunday, the ladies would start cooking biscuits and ham early. Then lunch was usually stew or a ham or a pot roast with all the trimmings. John had a refrigerator stocked with soft drinks and water, a freezer chocked full of ice cream. All of the food and treats were on the house. He really was great to work for as were the sons/nephews. On Sunday he would have the "Stained Glass Blue Grass" show playing on the speakers and every now and then Grandpa Jones or String Bean or another famous Grand Ole Opera Blue Grass musician would stop in to yak with John for a while. It was a wonderful place to work - felt like I was family. And man - John knew his guns.

[1hole]

I'm far too old and have used far too many good tools of many colors to still have a childlike affection for inanimate objects and paint. I know for sure that all reloading tool brands have some unique or unusually good devices and all makers have some real clunkers. I know some tool designs are made for some uses while other designs are made for other users. I believe ALL users should buy what they actually need - not what I or web others need - without being publically denigrated by brand and price snobs.

We should all get what we actually need to best fit our own working methods without childishly crowing to others that, "My beloved and exquisite brand of reloading tools is far better than your cheep junk brand"; grown-ups really should outgrow such "king of the hill" silliness. (Devoted RCBS loyalists are the silliest; I often read their emphatic web messages to the effect that, "Anything green is perfection and anything red, i.e. 'Lee', is trash!" Gag.)

Bottom line, no matter any personal illusions, RCBS tools are reasonably good overall but on case-by-case examples they are certainly not reloading's universal shining light on a hill. So, okay, some of green's molds are good (and some are not so good) but green is dropping molds anyway; big deal. We have other mold makers out there so I doubt their loss will disrupt the national cast boolit market at all.

I knew several years ago that Lee's Classic Cast presses would hurt the sales of over priced Rock Chuckers but I didn't know how bad it would be until I learned green had started getting their iron press castings from China and finishing them here so they could put "Made in the USA" labels on them. Thankfully, my now old (1993) 'RChucker 2 was made in the USA. Truth is, on average, the RC is a good tool but it's no better than any other compound linkage, single stage press in its general design class. And green die's critical dimensions are made to the specifications of SAAMI; exactly as are all other die brands.

YMMV.

[charlie b]

This thread reminds me of several of my other hobbies. RC model airplanes is one. It is suffering from the "drone frenzy" and made in China stuff. Building has dwindled to just a trickle. Same story. In our youth we built the planes because we could not afford one that was already made up. Now Chinese factories pump them out. And those who just want to fly get drones with cameras in them so they can fly like in their video games. Balsa wood is at an all time high because they use it in windmill blades. Hobby stores have gone away or have become minor players. The Chinese have large warehouses on other continents and deliver quickly. What was once an industry with a ton of local jobs is now a shadow.

Yep, every industry evolves over time and each generation follows a different path. My kids and grandkids have no interest in guns either, so, when I go everything will be sold off, probably at very cheap prices.

I do not doubt that in 200yrs we won't recognize the world, just as those 200yrs ago would not recognize this one.

[1eyedjack]

The youth has evolved in our country until if you can't do something on your phone let someone else do it for you. There are few craftsmen left in our world - those that can make or build some thing using their hands and tools!! Boolit casters still have that desire or want to accomplish something that seems to be dwindling away. We are a dying breed.

[Piłsudski]

I'm far too old and have used far too many good tools of many colors to still have a childlike affection for inanimate objects and paint.

Oh, I still like a lot of my tools because I like them, even if they aren't optimal in some cases. This may be because I can't afford better, or the tool was given to me, or just because it's the way I like to do things. As my choices don't affect anyone else negatively (other than maybe hurt feelings due to a lack of affirmation), then that's their issue, not mine.

We should all get what we actually need to best fit our own working methods without childishly crowing to others that, "My beloved and exquisite brand of reloading tools is far better than your cheep junk brand"; grown-ups really should outgrow such "king of the hill" silliness.

If somebody wants to give me something, then that's their choice. Otherwise, when it's my money that's paying the piper, I'll call the tune, thank you very much, and whether that pleases others or not is their affair. Of course, if someone else shares my interest in an activity or taste, like boolits or old Colts, then we have a basis for sharing and swapping stories.

Bottom line, no matter any personal illusions, RCBS tools are reasonably good overall but on case-by-case examples they are certainly not reloading's universal shining light on a hill. So, okay, some of green's molds are good (and some are not so good) but green is dropping molds anyway; big deal. We have other mold makers out there so I doubt their loss will disrupt the national cast boolit market at all.

I think that this sums things up. My analogy here (and granted, it doesn't hold in every aspect) is with Craftsman tools. When I started reloading, RCBS was the only brand available, because that's what the local sporting goods store carried. (Living in a small town has its plusses and minuses, but I'm still thankful for where I live. I've lived in a number of other places, so have some bases for comparison. My suit fits me; I can't say whether it's to anyone else's liking.) I read things like "Handloader's Digest" and knew of other products, but even if I wanted one, those products weren't available to me. There are advantages to buying on line, especially when living in more rural areas, after all!

So from my youth, my Dad had a lot of Craftsman tools and Sears was VERY handy. Their tools were serviceable and they backed their products very well. Dad said, "Every payday, buy a tool. It doesn't matter whether it costs 99¢ or $99 -- just buy one. Soon, you will have a nice selection of tools.

I did this for years, and did acquire a useful set of tools. There was a time when I began to realize that there were differences in quality, however. My Dad's 1/4" Skil electric drill that he bought in 1946 was heads and shoulders in quality above anything from Sears. I still have that drill, and aside from being metal framed and not grounded, it still is better than any corded drill I could or would aspire to own. Later, when it came time to buy a circular saw, I bought a Milwaukee, and have never been sorry. Once, I bought a 20" Sears chainsaw. Big mistake, as we heated with wood in those days. I dumped it and got a 20" Husqvarna. Again, light and day quality difference! Sears center punches and metal chisels are like many of their other hand tools: soft. Dad taught me how to temper them by oil quenching, which helped, but they were always too soft. Later, I acquired other tools that were better. Snap On screwdrivers were 100% better, but expensive, so I only have a few. I have Wiha and Wera tools, which are really nice.

Sears is no longer ubiquitous and other tools are available. The common Craftsman guarantee is also available, even at Harbor Freight. I bought a Harbor Freight tiny miter saw for trimming 24 gauge shotgun shells and cutting Lionel tubular track. It was pretty cheap. Is it in the same league as an old Skil or Milwaulkee? Hardly! But it suits my purposes just fine. The cheap number-letter punches from Harbor Freight aren't the greatest, either, but I got them to stamp lead ingots, so they will also serve for their purpose.

When I lost my job, I got a job in the electrical department of Lowe's. There was nothing in my experience to compare with working in retail when it came to understanding the character of John Q. Public. (Many stories here! My Wife took a job in Joann's fabric and had the same experiences. We have since used the admonishment, "stop acting like a customer!" with each other.) Once, one loud mouthed lout began braying about whether the merchandise was made in China, and that he didn't want to buy anything from China. Well, it wasn't. Some of the nails and screws came from the United Arab Emirates!?!? It took all my self-control to refrain from telling him that if that's how he felt, he should leave, and not bother going across the highway to Home Depot, because their stuff all came from China, too.

I don't care for stuff from China, either, but sometimes there is no alternative.

When I was younger, we all felt the same way about stuff from Japan. (It's odd, how now Japanese stuff is often looked at as some of the very best available!) I found a 10" adjustable wrench while scrounging in the junkyard then. I still have it, and it's much better than any of my soft Craftsman adjustables, and comparable to the old Crescents I inherited from Dad.

So, my preferences are for American made stuff, although I'll buy European and Asian stuff if there's no alternative, or if foreign stuff is better. I won't buy junk just to wave a flag.

I knew several years ago that Lee's Classic Cast presses would hurt the sales of over priced Rock Chuckers but I didn't know how bad it would be until I learned green had started getting their iron press castings from China and finishing them here so they could put "Made in the USA" labels on them. Thankfully, my now old (1993) 'RChucker 2 was made in the USA. Truth is, on average, the RC is a good tool but it's no better than any other compound linkage, single stage press in its general design class.

So here's where the Craftsman analogy comes in: there are other moulds, and some may be better in some cases. No longer, with the custom mould making business that we have now, and the internet marketing, is RCBS the only choice. Yes, they are/were nice moulds, and yes, I'm not pleased to see them exit the market, though I'm not grieving the matter. The more the merrier for all in this gun business during these days, but RCBS exiting mould making is not a critical or serious loss. There are other choices easily available.

And green die's critical dimensions are made to the specifications of SAAMI; exactly as are all other die brands.

Well, yes and no. I load for 7.5x53.5mm (1889 Swiss) and there ARE differences between brands. Lee 577-450 dies overwork the brass (maybe fore boolits closer to 0.458"?) but they are a night and day difference in price from alternate products. Lyman moulds seem to be variable in size, so even though I have some, I try to avoid them in general.

This thread reminds me of several of my other hobbies. RC model airplanes is one. It is suffering from the "drone frenzy" and made in China stuff. Building has dwindled to just a trickle. Same story. In our youth we built the planes because we could not afford one that was already made up. Now Chinese factories pump them out. And those who just want to fly get drones with cameras in them so they can fly like in their video games. Balsa wood is at an all time high because they use it in windmill blades. Hobby stores have gone away or have become minor players. The Chinese have large warehouses on other continents and deliver quickly. What was once an industry with a ton of local jobs is now a shadow.

This is the same as my interest in Postwar Lionel. The old stuff, which was pretty much electromechanical, has given way to all sorts of gadgets. Sound, for instance, is now on board. Many (and they aren't always young, either, plenty of old fogeys like me say this) denigrate the air whistles I love as primitive and crude. Well, there's no way that sound that comes from a tiny speaker sounds anything like a horn or whistle to my ears, either! But, I didn't pay for their four-figure Big Boy, and I hope they're happy. More than guns, model trains have taught me to give up this crusade to ensure that the world stays safe for Post War Lionel. Zamak is the proper material for a locomotive shell, I think! (But I wouldn't give a warm bucket of spit for a gun made out of it -- then again, many like them and that's their business.)

Like R/C (don't even mention free flight or C/L! I think Windy Urtnowski still has his C/L store in New Jersey, though.) the hobby stores for model trains have been disappearing, like the exceptional one in Denver. It's either the internet or die for hobby stores, it seems.

Yep, every industry evolves over time and each generation follows a different path. My kids and grandkids have no interest in guns either, so, when I go everything will be sold off, probably at very cheap prices.

I do not doubt that in 200yrs we won't recognize the world, just as those 200yrs ago would not recognize this one.

I think you are right. I think that at the bottom of this, it is a "values" issue. I remember that, back in the "old days" (my old days, anyway) there were always a few Winchester Self-loaders on the racks. I turned my nose up at them because they exemplified Winchester's arrogant and foolish treatment of John Browning. Foolish me! The quality of those guns was amazing. The bluing and wood-to-metal finish was better than anything I can even afford to touch now. They were dirt cheap because nobody wanted them. No ammo was available. Now, I'd love to have a nice 351 or 401 for $150 or $175, and wouldn't wait a second to buy one!

But most wouldn't be interested. Fit and finish, along with a pedigree, means little to someone who drools over the stuff that's in the counters today. They like the plastic and glorified paint finish. As a lover of "Colt Royal Blue," I turned my nose up at the black caustic finish on Smith & Wessons, and even Rugers. But even that black finish has an elegance compared to the finishes they put on guns now. It is too close to the paint slathered on my RFI 2A for me to get interested in it. I admit that it's durable, but it doesn't do anything for me.

Same with my reloading tools. When the Rockchucker became too slow and clumsy for handgun work, I grabbed a Ponsness-Warren P-200. Sure, a Dillon might have made more sense from the speed perspective, but not from the appreciation perspective. Again, here, I'll compare to hand tools: I'm not in a position to buy a new Snap On or Mac ratchet, but I did buy a new long handle 3/8" Proto a little while ago. Proto was a big deal in days gone by, and my Dad had a Plomb wrench and socket set for ages, before Plumb (the carpenter's hammer people) made them change their name. I have some other Proto stuff and it feels very nice in my hands, which is reason enough for me to buy the stuff.

Anyway, from the glass-of-water-half-full perspective, more people in shooting sports, whatever their tastes, is bound to be a good thing, even if it doesn't square with my tastes 100%. There are other things in life that are more worthy of my attention then the tastes and purchases of others.

[charlie b]

I would like to point out that there are quite a few 'youngsters' out there who appreciate quality tools, and wish they could afford them. The local contractors who are around the house comment on some of my tools and were saving up to buy the premium brands. My son is an electrician and values his Klein and similar tools. He taught me about the reliability of Makita stuff. He also taught himself machine control software programming and differential calculus.

Yes, many, many of them will never touch a tool. Just like in my youth the number of people who could use wood or metal working tools were a very small percentage (much less than 1%). I found the same problem when I got in the Army. I got to help teach kids how to use the tools they were issued. Not much has changed in 50 years.

Yes, many of us can appreciate a finely fitted and finished weapon (I inherited several). But, even these days I would not spend money on them if they did not shoot better than the budget models. Which is why I have a couple of Savage's

I could even venture to say that anyone who owns a Savage is contributing to the decline of the gun making world.

And, yes, I agree that anyone who chooses to own and use guns in a lawful manner deserve credit for their decisions, even if they decide to buy something a cheap version.

[dverna]

What ticks me off is my $225 T/C Compass is more accurate than my beautiful Model 70 Winchester that cost three times as much.

It ticks me off that my Glock is a better carry gun than my Kimber that costs twice as much.

If some bastard comes up with a SAA that is half the price and better than my Colts, that will tick me off too.

I like nice stuff...but when the cheap stuff does the job better, I use the cheap stuff.

[Tar Heel]

What ticks me off is my $225 T/C Compass is more accurate than my beautiful Model 70 Winchester that cost three times as much.

It ticks me off that my Glock is a better carry gun than my Kimber that costs twice as much.

If some bastard comes up with a SAA that is half the price and better than my Colts, that will tick me off too.

I like nice stuff...but when the cheap stuff does the job better, I use the cheap stuff.

Don, I use the things that work and spend the money needed to get value from the product at a price I can afford. Would I like to drive a Rolls Royce to work? Not really. I recognize the quality (albeit perceived now) of the Rolls but I have no desire to spend that much money when a transportation vehicle can cost a million dollars less.

We now have Colt SAA revolvers at 1/4 of the cost of a new Colt SAA. Are they better or worse? I would have just as much fun with either, shoot them the same, clean them the same, and repair them the same as springs break and hands wear. Some may say the cheaper version does better than the originals.

I see what your point is but speaking for myself, I have to operate within my budgetary parameters. I strive to get the best value and quality for my money. There may be better value out there but I may not be able to afford it. It also depends on why I am purchasing something. My guns are playthings not needed things. Well a few may be sometime soon but in general, they are but adult toys.

A home heating system is a needed thing. I will go as far as possible to get the best unit I can. Need versus want. Required versus toy. I am sure you are the same way too and that we think alike.

There are some things today which cost less to produce than similar items from decades ago. My mother's Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in .270 Winchester is a thing of beauty. It does show some wear and I am sure the barrel has some appreciable wear from when the rifle was purchased for her decades ago. Current manufacturing tooling and process may however, produce a more accurate rifle at 1/3 the cost of that Winchester. It will probably have a black synthetic stock and look horrendous but there is now a very accurate rifle on the market for a more "modern" selling price. The market has changed considerably.

For me at least, the first bite is with the eye. If the firearm looks cheap - it must be cheaply made and a lousy performer. Of course this is a prejudice I bring to the sales floor and a prejudice which reflects my personal taste in firearms. I personally do not care for black plastic. I prefer wood and case hardened metal. I do however recognize that some of the black plastic junk has value when used in a role it was designed for. Were I to go into a hostile environment with the lads, I would opt for a Beretta M92 over a Hi-Point or even a beloved Uberti 1873 SAA. The Hi-Point to me is cheaply produced for a low end market, and the SAA is not the tool I would bring to the stated environment when a better tool exists. Hand drills are great to fool around with but an electric drill is better.

I dearly appreciate nice stuff with high quality. If something exists that costs less and works better, I like you, will gravitate towards it. It's not that it's "cheap", it is simply less expensive. Quality and cost are two different measurements. We always say cheap to mean junk but that is not necessarily the case. Junk is junk and can can be inexpensive or expensive junk. Boy I have made that mistake a few times - buying expensive junk thinking because it cost more, it had high quality.

I once saw a customer purchase a brand new Colt Python revolver from the sales counter. He took the revolver, with tags still dangling from the trigger guard, out to the range. He loaded it and attempted to shoot it. It snapped 6 times. Click, click, click, click, click, click. He dumped the ammo and noticed no firing pin strikes on the primers. The firing pin was MISSING. High cost - poor performance and quality. Of course the same kind of thing can be said of other revolvers on the market. I once saw a Pietta 1851 new in the box where the wedge key could not be removed from the gun. Literally. It had been forced in place along with metal shavings from a milling station and had become "one with the gun."

Brand is another perception of quality. All Colt's must be high quality. All Brand-A must be junk. You have to admit that over the years we have seen runs of questionable quality from highly respected brands. Which Winchester rifle is built better with higher quality process and parts? A Pre-64, a post '64, or a modern Miroku Winchester. You may not like my answer based on a prejudice you may have for one period over another. Since I brought it up, I will say that the modern Miroku rifles have far superior material quality and production quality. The Japanese, with the adoption of Edward Deming's quality control concepts, have made American production look like third-world production. While I like a pre-64 Winchester Model 94 for it's appeal, I have to say the modern variant is a vastly superior firearm at about the same time-adjusted cost.

Oh well. Give me wood and metal at an affordable cost and that is when my wallet appears!

[dverna]

Tar Heel we think alike.

When I ordered the Compass I had never seen one. I saw the reviews anD paid $200 shipped after rebate plus $25 FFL fee. At that price, I figured it should be a decent enough beater gun to hunt with so I would not get the M70 dinged up in the woods. Or I would turn it into a cast bullet plinker.

When I unboxed it, it looked like a cheap ***. I did not hold much faith in it. Trigger was not good. Put on a cheap Nikon scope and started throwing groups on paper. The damn thing shot better than the M70. I replaced the scope with a Vortex that cost more than double what I paid for the rifle. It is now my primary hunting rifle.

I ordered a trigger kit for it and I am thinking of adding a Boyd’s At-One stock. After doing that, it will still cost less than half of a M70 and shot better.

There was a previous post about buying “quality” stuff. To me “quality” in a rifle is accuracy and dependability. I know the Compass is accurate, but not if it is as dependable as the M70.

If I had to get rid of one, the Compass would go. I am a gun snob.
If a man on a budget asked me to recommend a hunting rifle, it would be the Compass.

It is stupid to pay for a name, fit and finish unless someone can afford to do so. That Compass is the cheapest rifle at deer camp, and outshoots Tikka’s, M700’s, Rugers, and my M70.

And reality is most of the guys cannot shoot sub MOA even with a capable rifle. A *** Compass or Axis gets the job done. Paying for quality is for those who can afford it or need to impress someone.

[414gates]

Its not about the bean counters my friends it is about reality.

Read the OP

RCBS is getting out of casting stuff. When is the last time you recommended a mold design that is only made by RCBS? No big deal when they exit this market

RCBS is getting out of shotgun reloading. I only knew one competitive trap shooter who used the RCBS Grand and it was given to him as he was sponsored by them. MEC owns the hobby market. Spolar and Ponsness-Warren own the high end market. RCBS is nothing.

Progressive Reloaders...who has ever recommended one on this forum? None of the large volume shooters I have known have ever used RCBS progressives. I owned one (Green Machine)...the worst *** ever inflicted on the reloading community.

NOTHING surprises me about the OP. It was about time they focused on their core business and that is NOT casting, shotgun reloaders or metallic progressives.

Stop bashing the "bean counters". The "bean counters" who allowed RCBS to get into shotgun and progressive metallic reloaders hopefully were terminated decades ago....along with the engineers on that Green Machine.

+1

Making products costs money, especially at the machining and material quality level of RCBS. If the lines don't sell, terminate them. It's what every business does to improve the bottom line.

What RCBS is saying in the OP is that their shotshell / progressive reloaders and casting equipment product lines are running at a loss at the moment. Their error is to assume that nobody casts or reloads shotshell or ammo just because those product lines are not doing well for them.

I have a Pro 2000 that came with the primer slide upgrade, and the auto index upgrade. I use it for rifle only, so I reverted to the manual index wheel. The precision of the mating parts is phenomenal, far superior to Lee or Hornady. That, plus the materials used, probably priced them out of the market.

The new progressives that could have taken back some market share launched with a dud priming system that needed parts to be developed and replaced to get working. Those presses retail at eye watering prices. Consumer confidence takes long to build, and is quick to lose.

There are more shooters than ever that reload. For example, there is an uptake in rifle sport shooting amongst the younger generation[s], with high volume round count requirements. There is a huge market for progressive reloaders and related equipment for those shooting disciplines, so if they can innovate and get to market at a competitive price point, they can start turning that part of the business around.

[JohnH]

My complaint was never that RCBS was getting out of the business. My complaint was and is that they are crying that the market for their product is shrinking when the3 flourshing of boutique mold makers seems to be doing nothing but flourishing, and there is enough support for the art that casting forums can be found on most very forum which offers shooting/hunting sub forums. And on the one's I visit thee is always an influx of new casters. So I call BS on RCBS saying the market is shrinking. If nothing else it is maintaining a steady state, this in the face of a supply that was for the greatest part of my life, free or extremely low cost.

RCBS is getting out of the market because they failed to respond to the manufacturing forces which drive competitiveness. They, like Lyman ar making molds today with the same technology that molds were made with in the late 19th and early 20th century. It is absurd to think that a boutique mold maker can invest in CNC lathe and milling equipment and be profitable in this market while RCBS does not make that investment and makes excuses to the public rather than own up to the fact it made a bad business decision. And knowing that this technology is at the least some 25 years old, it was not a recent decision, but an old one and one they continued to stay with regardless of the evidence that the winds of success in manufacturing this product had changed. If they feel they can not be successful in the market, more power to 'em, but don't lie to us about the root causes of their decision. As well, there was nothing keeping them from being at the forefront of new designs. Lyman for years and years made new designs in line with the wants and needs of the cast shooting public as well as fresh understandings of what makes a cast bullet shoot well. One need only look at Lyman #225646 and #311644 to see this (I think it was Lyman #47 Handbook that described the engineering of these molds). Lyman has consistently supported the casting community with new molds and loading data. RCBS has only produced one loading manual for their designs. Contrast that with Lee having never produced any data for their designs. It comes down to a question of investment in their manufacturing, their product line and their customer base and from all indications, RCBS's heart was never really in it.

I will reiterate, I don't care if RCBS is in or out of the market, but them laying the blame for their decision to pull put of it has nothing to do their claim of a shrinking market, they never moved in a way to support or be profitable in that market over time and like all dinosaurs which fail to or are unable to adapt to a new environment, they cease to be. And I predict that if Lyman doesn't change their manufacturing model in the near future they are going to suffer the same fate.

[Tar Heel]

Let us not forget that the mold business is a matter of SCALE. Lyman and RCBS have to make production runs of a thousand copies of EACH MOLD to ship to retailers around the world. A boutique mold maker makes your design and sells one mold. RCBS and Lyman employ hundreds of workers to produce multiple product lines. A boutique mold maker employs 1 or two people to make molds. RCBS and Lyman have to survive market swings and economic shifts. A boutique mold maker may not be able to survive an economic downturn. Again, it's a matter of scale.

[curioushooter]

A lot of the reason for why plastic and soulless production rifles

Guns of all types are fairly affordable, well, until maybe the last couple years. I am 37 and have been buying/selling guns since I was 22, about 15 years. Seen the Obama scare come and go. But also remeber a time when you could walk to an open air gunshow in an Ohio fairground and pick up a really nice S&W 64 with a 2.5" barrel for $250. You can't get deals like that anymore, but looking at new firearms...

I bought a Ruger Bisley New Model Flatop Blackhawk in 2019 for $600 new. That's about three days wages for average income. You think you could pick up a colt SAA for three days wages at any time in its production run? And the Blackhawk is a better in many ways. It's certainly stronger and more durable using coil springs.

You can get a Charles Daly M1911A1 for about $450 even now. These are shockingly nice. They are better than any US produced M1911A1 I've come across. That's two days wages. You think one could pick up a 1911 pistol in 1925 for two days wages? And this is about what tupperwear costs. So plastic isn't necessary to make something affordable.

I bought a new Pietta Colt 1860 Army replica around Christmas at bass pro for $250 and tax. A days wage. And the quality is unbelievable at that price point. A bunch of fun. Most fun handgun I've bought I think. No plastic there. Only European walnut, steel, and brass.

I could go on here. Except for some bargain basement AR15s, those are not really affordable. A lot of AR15 builds end up being a lot more than a thousand dollars. That's more than my new walnut and stainless steel Hawkeye cost.

[charlie b]

And on top of that, even the cheaper rifles are more accurate than most sporters were 40 years ago. Material production methods have improved the quality and quantity so prices are relatively lower. Combined with precision casting/forging, CNC and more precise quality control and you get better stuff with less man hours invested.

'Plastic' stocks (and guns) are part of that for two reasons. The biggest is ease of production. The second is stability. No longer have to worry about a stock warping or sealing it so it won't absorb moisture and change the POI. Yeah, they are not 'warm and fuzzy', but, they work well. For pistols it is light and durable. No issues with rust, easy to clean, etc.

[h8dirt]

Regarding shotshell reloading economic savings, it does make sense on the 28 gauge and .410 bore shells. Not so much on the 12’s and 20’s.

[megasupermagnum]

Regarding shotshell reloading economic savings, it does make sense on the 28 gauge and .410 bore shells. Not so much on the 12’s and 20’s.

7/8oz 20 gauge trap loads sure, but even then they cost as much or more than 12 gauge. Everything else is quite expensive. Don't forget 16 and 10 gauges, which you would be poor if you had to buy ammo for. If you are like 98% of people and blow off whatever ammo is cheapest now and again, then use a box or two a year to hunt, then no, there's no reason to reload. If you do compete, you can reload shells as good as Remington STS, Federal Gold Medal, etc. for the cost of promo shells. If you hunt quite a bit, you can make superior ammo. Back when I started reloading I had no money. It was whatever I could scrape together helping dad refinish apartments, or scrap metal, or whatever. Dad gave me his Lee load all for free, then I bought a few hundred primers, a couple pounds of powder, a bag of wads, and scored a couple old bags of shot from someone. I was able to hunt all year trouble free for the cost of 3-4 boxes of hunting ammo. Back then my shooting wasn't so good. It was nothing to blow a box of ammo a day on ducks, 2 boxes happened quite often. It was also a lot more pass and jump shooting too, as I didn't have money for decoys, and painted jugs only work so well.

I don't save money like I used to, but you can still load ammo for cheap. That's more true today than when I was a kid. The only thing that has changed is that I can't walk into the local Fleet Farm and grab a primers from an unlocked shelf whenever I want, and I don't get to admire a wall of powders.

[Winger Ed.]

you can reload shells as good as Remington STS, Federal Gold Medal, etc. for the cost of promo shells.

That was always my reasoning for reloading 12 ga.

Plus, it keeps me out of those crooked BINGO parlors.

[Jtarm]

And on top of that, even the cheaper rifles are more accurate than most sporters were 40 years ago. Material production methods have improved the quality and quantity so prices are relatively lower. Combined with precision casting/forging, CNC and more precise quality control and you get better stuff with less man hours invested.

'Plastic' stocks (and guns) are part of that for two reasons. The biggest is ease of production. The second is stability. No longer have to worry about a stock warping or sealing it so it won't absorb moisture and change the POI. Yeah, they are not 'warm and fuzzy', but, they work well. For pistols it is light and durable. No issues with rust, easy to clean, etc.

Spot on.

Shooters used to have to earn MOA groups with careful handloading and things like glass bedding/free floating.

Factory ammo was crap.

[Jtarm]

Fred Huntington must be rolling in his grave.