What to make of an American Rifleman artilce

[1hole]

Never said he was right or that I agreed with him.

And I said HE is wrong because HE is wrong; was I out of line to mention that???

[curioushooter]

They are astounded when my cast bullets are hitting smaller targets than their new 6.5CM (that they really don't know how to shoot).

I will say this about the 6.5 CM, which I dismissed for a decade as a fad, but finally got, not because I thought it was a good cartridge, I would have bought a .30-'06 if I could have, but because it happened to be the only cambering for Left-Handed Ruger Hawkeyes available at the time, and it was good deal I thought.

I don't know if it's a fluke, but my 6.5 Ruger Hawkeye is freakishly accurate. I didn't think anything would beat my CZ527, but alas. When holes touch at 200 yards you shut up and take notice. And this with a straight forward book load--129 Grain Hornady Interlock and 42 grains of Reloader 16 Lee factory crimped in the groove--the second load I even tried. No words. Made me feel kind of dumb. I just Lee collet neck sized once fired Starline cases, didn't weigh out each bullet (I did weigh out each charge carefully to a tenth of grain), didn't do any neck or primer pocket adjustiment, didn't trim, just used regular CCI Large Rifle Primers. Nothing, except perhaps the Lee collet die, was "match grade" either. The 6.5 129 grain Interlock is the cheapest middleweight 6.5 in Hornady's line and a hunting bullet with a exposed lead nose...I got a box for free for buying a die 44 Mag/Special die set. Starline cases are the cheapest cases. Reloder 16 was kind of a fluke...I got it because they were out of H4350 and I only have a tiny bit of a bottle left.

I've loaded .30-'06 for years in various rifles, taking all those extra steps, used Sierra 168 Palma match, and other high grade match bullets from Hornady, never anything like that. I even loaded 6.5x55 in an old M96, which was very accurate, but not like the Hawkeye, and this was with primo Lapua brass and bullets. I'm sure having good glass is part of it, but I've had good glass on a lot of things. This thing is just spectacular. I would say to someone who is interested in hunting---coyotes through deer up to elk--that if legal in your state, look no further than a Ruger Hawkeye in 6.5 and put some good glass on it. Use any good factory ammo you want, or a basic lee set with a collet neck sizing die, and you won't be disappointed. Use the light bullets for the coyotes or even varmint hunting, and use the middle weights for deer, and use those fancy 142 grain ELD-X bullets for Elk.

[curioushooter]

It was about time they focused on their core business and that is NOT casting, shotgun reloaders or metallic progressives.

Excuse me, but what would that be? RCBS stands for Rock Chuck Bullet Swage. They started out making swaging equipment (supposedly out of Model-T axles) for the home user using 22LR rifle cases to make bullet jackets if I am correct.

Their business IS manufacturing reloading equipment, and like Redding/SAECO, they are not competitive on price or quality. RCBS's problem is not the market--Lee and all the boutique mold makers prove this--it is that their stuff is overpriced and not that great. I like my Lube-A-Matic II and the couple of molds and dies they made. I think I got them all used. Most of my dies are Lees. Most of the molds I really use are made by boutique manufacturers: Arsenal, NOE, M&P, Accurate. I do have some good old Lyman molds, but mostly I have clones now, which are invariably better than originals. And Lee makes some fine molds, which are priced well. For round balls especially, Lee can't be beat.

[JohnH]

Its not about the bean counters my friends it is about reality.

Read the OP

RCBS is getting out of casting stuff. When is the last time you recommended a mold design that is only made by RCBS? No big deal when they exit this market

RCBS is getting out of shotgun reloading. I only knew one competitive trap shooter who used the RCBS Grand and it was given to him as he was sponsored by them. MEC owns the hobby market. Spolar and Ponsness-Warren own the high end market. RCBS is nothing.

Progressive Reloaders...who has ever recommended one on this forum? None of the large volume shooters I have known have ever used RCBS progressives. I owned one (Green Machine)...the worst *** ever inflicted on the reloading community.

NOTHING surprises me about the OP. It was about time they focused on their core business and that is NOT casting, shotgun reloaders or metallic progressives.

Stop bashing the "bean counters". The "bean counters" who allowed RCBS to get into shotgun and progressive metallic reloaders hopefully were terminated decades ago....along with the engineers on that Green Machine.

I don't have a problem with them getting out. I do have a problem with them blaming their failure to upgrade their manufacturing technology and product line to to maintain and gain standing in the manufacturing of casting product on "the stagnation of cowboy action shooting" as a half truth at best. Bullet casting never did rely on cowboy action shooters, if anything, cowboy action shooting relied on the cast bullet, be it homemade or store bought and I bet there's plenty of store bought, in fact I 'd bet there is more store bought than homemade.

Here's a reality. RCBS never offered four cavity molds to my knowledge. Neither RCBS nor Lyman ever branched out into aluminum or brass offerings and never moved their mold making to CNC machinery. Neither company ever kept up with the known qualities of the requirements of a proper fitting cast bullet for revolvers. If you get a mold from them for a 44 it is going to drop .429 diameter bullets even though it has long been known that a cast bullet should be at least .001 over cylinder throat diameter. I've a Lipsey's GP 100 357 that has .359 throats. You won't find that from RCBS. Without question, RCBS makes a great mold. I have the 24390 257120 and the 30150CM and they are excellent molds and I've never had a moments trouble with either of the three. But if someone made the 30150CM in a four or six banger aluminum, I'd be all over it. (Recently got NOE's 170 RD, don't need a 4 banger CM now, and newer designs are another issue in this whole matter)

RCBS is getting out of the market because it failed to keep up with it. What the bean counters are seeing is a result of the failure and of course they are advocating getting out of the market, RCBS gave their market share to newer people in the field who had invested in CNC machinery which gave them the flexibility to at once offer a single bullet style over several diameters, meeting their customers needs for more than one diameter offering, to being able to make molds for multiple calibers with simple drills and boring bars rather than dedicated cherries and milling cutters. That was cutting edge technology in the early 1900's, but not in the 2000's. The real question this raises is RCBS changing their manufacturing methods to keep up with the times in their other manufacturing process or are they continuing to make the same mistakes there they've made with their casting products. If the answer to that is yes then it won't be long before they are telling us they are getting out of the reloading business as well.

[SSGOldfart]

Well said TarHeel.

[mehavey]

RCBS is getting out of the market because
it failed to keep up with it.

...and it (and other businesses as well) began to fail when the bean counters
decided to milk all they could out of producing what they could out of what
they had at the time... instead of visionary investing toward the future.

When big conglomerates merge smaller money-maker enterprises,
they operate on the cash cow principle.
Run it dry, cast it off.

[dverna]

What I see are a handful of small custom mold makers putting out the best molds ever made. I own a few of them for that reason. For RCBS to succeed they would need to capture almost the whole custom mold market to make it worth doing plus a good part of the Lee market.

IMO be thankful RCBS has decided to leave it. If it mattered to them, they would buy the American mold makers, and jack up prices to cover their infrastructure costs. But the volume is too low to make the investment. BTW, if you think a little shop linke MP can satisfy the demand for molds, you have admitted the market is darn small.

But the boutique mold makers are only part of problem. Lee is the problem. I think 90% of cast bullets are pistol bullets used for pistol plinking...maybe more. And Lee stuff is cheap and good enough for most of the market.

Faced with a small custom mold market, and Lee taking care the bulk of the cast bullets needs for those wanting cheap and good enough...they are doing the smart thing.

I doubt 1000 people will miss RCBS getting out of the mold market...that is how insignificant it is. We have 50k members on this...the largest cast forum in the world...and a handful of members are wringing their hands.

[SSGOldfart]

I for one won't miss RCBS. Tar Heel some it up very nice on page one.

[Daekar]

Don has a good point. For whatever reason, they clearly haven't made competitive choices in the casting market, and I have never considered buying any RCBS molds...between Lee and the custom makers, there was never a reason to consider them, especially when they don't offer modern boolit designs in the first place. They have rendered themselves irrelevant, and will not be missed.

My bottom pour pot is by them, I think... it's green, anyway... and it's fine, I have no complaints, but I don't think it's any better than anything else on the market.

[charlie b]

I will say this about the 6.5 CM, which I dismissed for a decade as a fad, but finally got, not because I thought it was a good cartridge, I would have bought a .30-'06 if I could have, but because it happened to be the only cambering for Left-Handed Ruger Hawkeyes available at the time, and it was good deal I thought....

I was not discounting the 6.5CM. Only the average youngster who buys one expecting to hit bullseyes at 1000yd without any shooting skills. He is told that by all the advertising that it is like shooting a laser beam. When at the range the comments are along the lines of, 'This *** won't shoot straight. I gotta take it back.'

That is the common customer these days.

[Mal Paso]

RCBS's half hearted attempt with the Pro Melt 2 was the writing on the wall. There is no one at RCBS with a fire in their belly and they are slipping out of existence.

The goal of the Pro Melt 2 project should have been the best product on the market. They could have taken over. That Lyman is Retailing for $450 is Proof!

[Backcut]

I am 43. I started reloading in 2019. 9mm, 223, 308, 30-30, 8x57, 357, soon 45 auto. Some of these save me a little money per round. But even the 9mm and 223, while I couldn't load it as cheap as you could buy it 3 years ago... I could load it for almost that cheap but mine shoots as well or better than factory match ammo costing much more. Now, even figuring primers at 10c each, I'm loading it for cheaper than I can find anywhere. And I enjoy the hobby and time spent in the basement after the wife goes to bed.

I got a friend into reloading, I don't think he's 30 yet. I let him know when primers came back online a few months ago; he got some and the dies and components he needed and has been hanging out in my basement loading away. It's fun to have a reloading buddy. So there are some new people getting into it.

I don't cast yet, but I'd like to. I've been smelting range scrap in preparation. Experimenting with cast bullets I bought from Acme and others. Shopping around for a casting pot and molds. I have not even considered RCBS or any of the other old expensive iron mold makers. I'm looking at either Lee, or Noe or Arsenal etc.

I don't read gun magazines. Forums are more interesting, informative, and trustworthy (taking it all with a grain of salt).

[curioushooter]

I was not discounting the 6.5CM. Only the average youngster who buys one expecting to hit bullseyes at 1000yd without any shooting skills. He is told that by all the advertising that it is like shooting a laser beam. When at the range the comments are along the lines of, 'This *** won't shoot straight. I gotta take it back.'

That is the common customer these days.

I know what you mean, but I must repeat. I have the same "shooting skills" that I had a few years ago when I messing around with ought-six, 7.62.54R, 6.5x55, etc. Maybe they are worse today. I always figured I was the problem, doing something hokey either when I was shooting or when I was loading. Turns out that the hardware really does matter sometimes. 6.5CM is some secret sauce it seems.

[todd9.3x57]

gun rags are for tactic-cool people, worthless piles of dung.

i taught six people to handload. i am teaching another one.

i was 19yo when i first started to handload.

please include john wootters.

i have been casting for 10-11 years (i'm a neophyte).

i have been shooting since i was 10yo. (i am 49yo)

i like wildcats. 20 vartarg and 35/30-30 come to mind.

i like old cartridges. the 30-40 krag, 7.65x53, 9.3x57 and the 30 remington and others.

i love old blued steel and wood. i hate "plastic" guns.

i got rid of '06 and 308 and 223, mostly because EVERYBODY has one!!!!

i never owned a 9mm and i'm not going to.

i do case reforming ('06 brass - 6.5x55, 7.65 argy, 7, 8 and 9.3x57 to name a few).

oh, for the past 12 months, i let my beard grow out and i voted for Trump.

[fredj338]

SOunds more like the guy just doesnt get why most people cast bullets; because they like doing it & its cheaper shooting. I cast for all my handguns, 9mm thru 45colt.

[Piłsudski]

I have lurked here for years, but this post has brought me out of the woods. I agree, it is thought provoking and provided some interesting viewpoints upon which I'd like to comment. This post will both serve as my introduction as well as my responses.

I began reloading in 1979. A friend offered to teach me to reload for my second centerfire rifle, a Remington 721 in 300 H&H. I bought the rifle because I wanted a 300 H&H. My friend offered to teach me how to reload, so I bought a set of dies (RCBS was all that was sold in our little Western town), a flat of primers, and a box of 150 gr Sierra boat tails. From my friend, who had made a bulk purchase, I bought 4# of surplus Hodgdon 4831. I went to his house and used his scale, trickler, and RCBS Jr press.

Soon, I bought a Rockchucker, a 505 scale, and a Uniflow powder measure and started doing things myself. I bought my 3rd handgun, a Ruger Blackhawk, in 45 Colt. After this, all of my dies and equipment was RCBS until I began shooting 45 Auto and 38 Spl in quantity. Then, I bought Lee carbide sizer dies. Other upgrades since then have been a RCBS Lube-A-Matic, a Ponsness Warren P-200 (for handguns), and dies from RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Redding, and Forster benchrest seaters. I've also either bought Redding stepped expanders or Lyman M dies for all cartridges, and a Lyman furnace. I have a pair of Lee Loadalls in 12 and 16 ga, but don't shoot shotguns very much.

My plan has been based on buying all of the equipment I'd need to shoot once I reached retirement, since it was obvious years ago that buying ammunition and bullets would be beyond my retirement budget.

I got into shooting after leaving a dissolute life in my youth and needed to avoid places like pool halls and other past hangouts. Therefore, my shooting has almost always been a solo activity, be it hunting, varmint hunting, or being at the range. Now, in retirement, it is one of my main hobbies (the other being postwar Lionel O Gauge).

About sharing information, most people don't want to receive advice. I will offer it when it seems like it would be received, but other than that, I keep my mouth shut. The range I use now is not very busy on weekdays, so that's when I go. Once, one of the range officers was talkative, and I talked to him. Other than that, I mind my own business, as does everyone else.

About young people, an old philosopher once said something like the older generation finding fault with the younger when they aren't able to set a bad example anymore. This seems to be true. So what, if they want to get into black rifles and hi-cap 9mms? It's not my money and no business of mine. So what if they don't appreciate older guns, as I do? The youth of today don't like phone calls, voice mail, hot rods, and old movies, like I do. They didn't grow up with "Rio Grande," "Captain Blood," or other such movies. They don't even like black and white movies or film noir. Their perspective is different. Well, big surprise! My Dad didn't like Leon Russell or Isaac Hayes. Does it really make sense that young people will share my tastes, which were shaped by my experiences? When I bought my 22, my Dad directed me toward an old Marlin 39a. I bought it, but I really wanted one of those slick Browning 22 Autos. He had watched all the "Oater" cowboy movies and knew all of those actors by heart -- that was his cultural perspective. I wanted what I saw in the American Rifleman ads. Decades later, my brother bought a Browning Auto. Out shooting gophers, I soon learned that Dad was no dummy: my old Marlin gave up nothing to my brother's fancy Browning -- not one gopher's worth. Sometimes it pays to listen, but as my Grandmother said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." My kids were taught and they will deal with their choices just like I've had to deal with the consequences of mine.

Years ago, the fellow in the LGS, my friend, told the story of an old man who came in with a Winchester Model 42 to be repaired. He announced with misty eyes that he was giving it to his grandson. Sure enough, a few weeks later, the grandson came in and took a hundred bucks for it. I should worry about what happens to my guns after I croak? Nope, I will use them and sell them as necessary. My boys are both smarter than I am and much more well-to do. They don't want my junk, or even family junk. I will please myself. My shooting has always been a solo endeavor. If I can share, I'm happy to. Otherwise, if shooting goes down the rat hole after I'm gone, that's hardly a care to me now and will be less of one when I'm gone.

My grandson, who now has my '54 Ford F100, just goes out and buys what he wants for it. He doesn't go scrounging through old wrecking yards for gauges, lock parts, or Ram's Horn exhaust manifolds. He just uses his old man's plastic. My Dad's last timing light, vacuum gauge, etc -- the grandson just went and bought junk instead. Ditto my nice ring compressor. Someday, my extensive tool set will go on the block. It's not out of spite or revenge. It's simply not appreciated or valued, so why should I work up a sweat over it?

No, today's gun and shooting scene is very different from my own perspective, and it is changing radically. But, I do rejoice in people buying black rifles and plastic pistols. Last year (2021) I understand that there were over 20 million FBI background checks. I would guess that the great majority of those were for sales of black rifles and plastic pistols to first time shooters and non-reloaders. What we need, if we have 300 million guns in America now, is 600 million guns in 5 years or less. More people who don't want their property and rights confiscated, and robust gun sellers (whether from the USA or Brazil, Turkey, Czech Republic, Japan, or wherever doesn't matter) will be much more effective in preserving everyone's rights than buying Wayne LaPierre new suits and yachts and other accoutrements of wealth.

6.5 Creedmoor? I had a 6.5x55 for awhile, and it was nice. Since I've gone over to almost total boolit shooting, I don't see any of the Creedmoors to be something I'm interested in having. Besides, "everyone" knows that the optimal caliber is 6.8mm, not 6.5mm or 7mm, and I've already got one of those modern perfect calibers: 270 Winchester. So, if you want a Creedmoor, or you find a good deal on one, have at it with my full approval. There's nothing about this gun stuff that trumps what you like, anyway, and that needs no justification (unless you are buying to impress somebody else for some reason).

I had been thinking about one of those plastic pistols myself, considering that one would be more suitable for carry than the relics I currently use. Then, out of the blue, my Bride told me that I could have a gun for Christmas! I was certain that my buying days were done (and they are now), so I considered those compact Ruger 9s made of plastic on sale at Sportsman's. Then, I ordered an 1889 Swiss. What a pleasure, examining and working that piece, and wondering about the fellow who put his name under the butt plate all of those years ago! Others may like the bathtub toy plastic, and again, more power to them.

I'll be needing a mould for it. (I'll also be posting questions about this sometime.) I have few Lymans, some SAECOs for the bullseye shooting, and some RCBSs, both handgun and rifle. I may go in two directions here: I bought a Lee 8x56R for 8mm Lebel, and I might go for one of those Karabiner Maxx Lee moulds from MidSouth for the Swiss if MidSouth ever get them back in stock. Lee hasn't been as durable as I'd like in the past. But then, I thought, I'm not at the point of thinking I'll live forever anymore. Maybe a Lee will last long enough for me to get to the Heavenly realm. (For this reason, I did grab a Lee 6 cavity in 9mm. The price was very attractive!)

I needed a mould for 577-450 and looked around. I ended up with one from Accurate. It is at least as nice as the SAECOs, RCBSs, or an old Lyman that I have. Also, when I compare prices, a mould from Accurate, which I can have custom made, isn't very much more than one from SAECO or RCBS. This makes me ask, why do I need RCBS? As others have said, they don't have anything new, anyway. I have a 270 150gr (which I understand can't be obtained new any longer) and a 308 180gr, as well as a risk I took on a 45 Colt used mould they don't offer anymore, and a 480 Ruger mould that will be a plinker bullet for 577-450. I don't see anything more in RCBS's mould catalog that I need. I can go Accurate or SAECO and be quite happy, or maybe even Lee in some cases, for my needs.

I understand that RCBS bought up Ohaus back when they were part of Omark, or something like that. I'd guess that their tooling and such isn't the newest in many cases. My RCBS moulds are nice -- I don't question that. But maybe they just want to put their efforts in to some other market. Bean counters, youth -- who cares about that stuff?!?! One of my Grandmother's sayings was "They're going to do what they're going to do!" Why should I get into paroxysms of rage and name calling over these things? Anyway, I'm familiar with St. Francis's "Serenity Prayer." It seems like good advice to me, and time is too short to be spinning my wheels over things beyond my control.

[Tar Heel]

Wonderful first post Pilsudski. Thanks for the comments and point of view.

As another long-time handloader, your loading bench is probably a rainbow of tool colors. If like mine, it has Orange gear, Green gear, Blue gear, Red Gear, Golden gear, Black gear, Silver gear, and a myriad of other less obvious colors, you too bought what was available. I never was one to buy a single manufacturers gear, I bough what was available at my LGS and met my needs. This was all of course, prior to online purchasing in those heady pre-internet years. Who would have thought that all of the products would be up for sale at one vendor web site like MidwayUSA?

When I lived in Virginia, we always made the trip to Clark Brothers in Warrenton to get reloading supplies. John Clark stocked all you could need. I haven't been back there in the last 30 years but I would bet the reloading supplies, which took up 1/3 of the show floor, now take up a single shelf 3 feet long.

[Shopdog]

Looking up....speaking of Clark bros....

Somewhere around the late 70's I had been casting with the ole Coleman stove for a few years. Used to go to Clark bros when going by there. On their shelf was a used 10# Lyman pot,and a box with some moulds,handles,and parts. Since I had been a good customer of theirs for years(started as a youngster with dad)....

I asked Mr Clark what the skinny was on the old Lyman pot? He said nobody's casting anymore,and if I wanted it.... just take it. So "things" haven't changed all that much? And yes,am still using that 10#'er.

[Rich/WIS]

Have owned molds by RCBS, Lyman/Ideal, NOE and LEE. Still have the NOE and LEE molds, all 5 or 6 cavity. Good bullet designs, production speed and the weight factor in aluminum is a big factor. My rifle press is a RC, for pistol a Lyman Mag T, and for priming off press the little LEE C press. Dies are Lyman, Hornady, RCBS and a mix of Lyman M dies and their old sliding seater dies. My sizer/lubricators are Lyman (4) and RCBS. I have powder measures from Lyman, RCBS, LEE and a vintage Forster/Bonanza fixed rotor.

I provide this inventory to demonstrate that we are blessed with a variety of loading and casting equipment from a quite a few manufacturers. In terms of molds there are plenty of makers who will be glad to take your money for what you think works best for you, either off the shelf or custom. If we were still depending on only RCBS and Lyman for molds then RCBS might be missed, but in the marketplace today doubt if many will miss or lament their passing as far as molds are concerned.

Agree totally that RCBS missed the boat by making only double cavity steel molds.

[tmanbuckhunter]

A lot of this is perspective. I'll be 30 in March. I know a lot of handloaders my age, and even bullet casters. I own one AR, and the rest of my collection consists of Marlin leverguns, military surplus, and several primitive muzzleloaders, mostly flintlocks. A lot of the reason for why plastic and soulless production rifles are so popular is cost. Money doesn't go the distance it once went, and many of the younger generation simply can't afford a piece of classic american iron, even if they want it. What makes more sense? Buy a Ruger American for a few hundred bucks in a decent cartridge, put a decent scope on it, and now you can target shoot with MOA or better precision, and hunt just about anything in North America, or go spend $3-$6k on a Shiloh sharps in a cartridge you may have to handload for? Many of those of the younger generation aren't even taking home $3,000/mo after taxes, health insurance, and living expenses.

Go easy on the younger generation. Less gate keeping, more guiding. I was fortunate to grow up in a hunting family full of riflemen. I grew up watching Westerns with my grand parents, and watching my grandfather build fine sporting rifles. I knew what Richards Microfit was at 6 years old. My upbringing is why I collect Marlins, flintlocks, and shoot BPCR competitively. It's why I've been sitting at a handloading bench since I was a boy. Not everyone got that opportunity, and even more so with the newer, younger generations. I've have plenty of men from my generation, and younger see me at the range and ask me what I'm shooting, and after explaining it and letting them take a few cracks with it, guess what? It now interests them too. They simply were never exposed to it. The ones that can afford it, will come around eventually.