Starting out at hopeless and moving toward better prepared

[hoodat]

Meaahhh--- Death holds no fear for me. Life without a hot shower and a cup of coffee scares me to death. jd

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There was an early-on survivalist named Mel Tappan, who's name I haven't heard mentioned for quite awhile. Could be that those currently interested in the subject aren't old enough to remember his newsletter "Personal Survival" and magazine articles written in the '70s and early '80s. They're worth seeking out and reading, even today, as he had it well thought out.

Having been an avid hunter for the first half of my life I thought, as many still do, "Oh...I'll just go out in the woods and shoot a deer." Not so, or anyway not for long, as the same idea will occur to thousands of others, and without game management the deer will all be gone in a couple of months. A personally hoarded food supply is the immediate answer, but not an answer with sustainability. When it's gone, it's gone.

Tappan covered many eventualities, and even considered the boat idea, already covered in this thread as being somewhat viable. Not his first choice though, which was a small homogenous community that could provide for the mutual sustainment and defense. It always comes down to the fact that for distance you will likely have to join our friend Marco in Alaska for remoteness and wilderness to provide protection and food; but I'll bet that even his ecosystem could be overwhelmed by an increased population with demand for caribou meat. Every game animal taken out of circulation and put in the pot is one that won't reproduce, and it's loss will be felt in just a few years.

I've always thought that when the big disaster comes, be it riots and food shortages, nuclear war, disease, etc. that the worst of the worst will come boiling out of the cities like rats leaving a sinking ship and pass across the earth like a plague of locusts, leaving nothing behind but death, destruction, and empty food cans. They will come in bands large enough to overwhelm most rural survivors, and only organized militias will stand a chance. They will be highly motivated by hunger and a need for whatever else you posses. It's historical fact that "an army marches on it's stomach." We are seeing the early version of this today in the rampant crime in the inner cities. Brazen shoplifting, car-jackings, arson, looting, broad daylight robberies and even murders. These are the same people, or type of people, that will survive long enough to attack you, because they have no ethics or conscience and will hack, claw, and fight their way over the bodies of many ordinary folks to get out of the cities. Very early on the prisons will be emptied, and the contents will join the other goblins.

I guess I've said it before, but at age 80 I doubt if a community will want to take me and my wife in, and I will stand my ground where I am. What I've got is mine, and I won't voluntarily give it up. I have also considered dverna's speculation about "What will a Christian do?" and it's a tough problem. I think one will be forced to choose among the weak and helpless and provide what aid they can to those the most in need as they are able, but not to the point of self-destruction.

Just last week I ran across an e-mail meme sent by my brother which said, "If you are a giver you have to know your limits, because the takers have none."

If afterward civilization should get up and running again, I predict it will be something quite unlike what we presently know.

Anyone really interested in the survivalist subject will benefit by reading some of Tappan's writings.

DG

[hoodat]

I believe that Satan has quite a grip on this earth, and his evil is barely held at bay. When the dam breaks, things are gonna be awful to behold. It's gonna get bad really fast, and from many different directions.

Our modern world, our society, prosperity, comforts and compassion are somewhat of an anomaly in the history of the world. And nowhere on earth has enjoyed it to the degree that our precious USA has. If things go bad, or WHEN things go bad, survival is largely going to depend on your location, your health (and age), your adaptability, and sheer luck.

Thinking that we can plan for specific equipment and supplies is often dicey. Have you ever found yourself stranded out in the middle of nowhere, with guns, ammo, water, booze, enough clothes for a squadron, coolers full of grub, four hundred pounds of stupid comforts that you don't need, and without the one thing that you really need -- a second spare tire.

Bugging out, or in will be the same way. A lot less to do with what you have vs learning to get by with almost nothing. jd

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I agree with your entire post. There's always the unexpected, and always Murphy's Law. As the Good Book say, "These things must come to pass...." God can protect us if he wishes to do so, but as has been previously stated there are things worse than death.

DG

[dverna]

I am afraid i would just wind up bugging in, rotting corpses on the boulevard and all. But the boonie locations i was thinking of are not really like neighborhoods with locals at all. There is no power, no cell service etc and nobody living there year round.

Rotting corpses are bait piles. Dogs, coyotes, bears, crows, ravens, eagles, rats etc...will provide protein. And reducing the dog, coyote and bear population will increase the amount of deer, rabbits, etc.


DG, I plan to find writings of the gentleman you mentioned. Thanks for posting the information.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Great...I'm sure you'll enjoy them.

DG

[BrassMagnet]

Mel Tappan was writing when I was young. I was impressed. Now I am impressed by A. American. Do read the Going Home series.

[Wag]

Meaahhh--- Death holds no fear for me. Life without a hot shower and a cup of coffee scares me to death. jd

You bring to mind an important concept: Addiction.

I'm completely addicted to the caffeine of coffee and if I don't have at least a half pot every morning, I'm in serious trouble. I've attempted to go without for as long as possible and the headaches and other withdrawals don't abate for about six weeks. The first week is almost completely debilitating.

Mostly, I drink coffee for the taste but I know well enough that the addiction will hurt me bad if I can't get it.

Others may have this addiction or other addictions.

The flip side is, if you have things like coffee or prescription narcotics, you may have a bank that you can use to acquire other things. Or that bank will attract killer and thieves.

--Wag--

[MrWolf]

I can't even get more than 33 (narcotic) pills at a time. 30 for the Rx and Pharmacy/insurance only allow 3 extra pills. I have been taking the same Rx for over 5 years and am 61 but I am treated as an addict and have to see pain doc every month and get urine tested every 90 days.

[MUSTANG]

I can't even get more than 33 (narcotic) pills at a time. 30 for the Rx and Pharmacy/insurance only allow 3 extra pills. I have been taking the same Rx for over 5 years and am 61 but I am treated as an addict and have to see pain doc every month and get urine tested every 90 days.

Our #3 son is in the same boat. He has Nueropathy in his legs and feet; often with excruciating pain. We understand the conditions and constraint that MrWolf must live in. These conditions are/will be almost insurmountable in a collapsed society.

[rancher1913]

might check into stocking some kratom, you can still get it over the counter but they are trying to shut that down.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

The abscessed tooth is an ugly specter to contemplate as is the compound fracture or gut shot. But for now the natural gas is flowing and the larder is plump.

[MUSTANG]

The abscessed tooth is an ugly specter to contemplate as is the compound fracture or gut shot. But for now the natural gas is flowing and the larder is plump.

Ouch - Teeth problem in a decline of civilization will be nasty. Graphic representation of such:

[BrassMagnet]

It is time to move back to first principles. We need to stop insisting that only we are right and everyone that sees the world differently is wrong!
I read a lot of fiction. I read it for entertainment and for ideas.
I believe Lucifer's Hammer was the first book I read where the army was on the wrong side. What can you do then?
More recent fiction has DHS as the enemy of freedom.
Let's widen our minds and consider what everyone says.
Now for me. I believe there are many things that can go wrong in our world. If we have only considered one failure mode then we will have only one possible solution. If we have considered many possible failure modes then we can likely take one of our plans that is close enough and implement it immediately while we consider how to adjust it to fit better what has actually happened.
Now I do agree with most of the posters in this thread: You don't want to be the refugee! It usually doesn't end well. However, If I am off at the store, I am not home and I need to get there fast. I walk rather slowly and even slower if I am carrying anything. Would having a bicycle in my pickup improve things and get me home faster before things go from bad to worse? I kept a bicycle inside my camper shell for months and when I got it out to ride it I couldn't because the tires went flat with rotted inner tubes. So much for that plan!

[BrassMagnet]

I used the bug out vehicle for a grocery store trip today. What a wake up call!
I put about fifty pounds of mail, water, milk, canned goods, and cereal in the panniers (saddle bags!) on the back. What a change in handling! I believed it would hold 400 pounds, i.e. 200 pounds of me and 200 pounds of cargo and handle normally. What a joke. Handling was terrible and it was real work just to push the bicycle up hill. One time it wanted to flip over backwards. I barely held it. I also needed to muscle it a lot to get it on and off of the road to avoid traffic. I am sore and stiff!
I have a cargo rack to install on the front. That may help balance. The weight might still be an issue. The four inch knobby tires are good on sand, fresh powder snow, and mud. They are terrible on ice or packed snow/ice. Max speed on a long downhill slope is 17 mph. Unloaded 10 mph is easy. Today 3-6 mph was more normal when I didn’t need to walk up hill.

[Winger Ed.]

The four inch knobby tires are good on sand, fresh powder snow, and mud. They are terrible on ice or packed snow/ice.

As a 'just in case', you want to sell the bicycle, find a good deal on a gently used rickshaw--
the new kind you peddle for carrying the heavier loads and when road conditions are foul.
You won't gain much in speed, but they're safer for older folks, and a little harder to tip over.

[MrWolf]

If you are serious about carrying something just in case, look at the electric scooters and such. Small and quiet. Could even disguise one in a box kept on hitch.

[dverna]

BM,

I have been looking at something like this:

https://www.overstock.com/Sports-Toy...cling_Bicycles

There are electric ones as well from $3-7k but they are a bit too rich for me.

The off road tricycle style ticks more boxes for me. I live on rural roads that have powdery sand in some sections, and a normal bike will not do well. Trics are stable and can carry a decent load safely. If there is a light amount of snow, they are supposed to handle it...and I get snow..LOL


Edit to add..
As a SHTF vehicle, a tricycle is not dependent on fuel or electricity. A few patch kits, spare tubes. spare chain, and a foot pump will keep it going. The BIG downside is if you live around people who are not part of your mutual aid group (MAG), or you are using it as a bug out vehicle. You will be murdered for it. Although that applies to any thing that makes your life easier when the SHTF it is to be considered when you are out and about alone.

In my case, my closest neighbor is 3/4 miles away and the defensive "choke point" to our MAG is 5 miles away. Walking 5 miles a few times a week with weapons, ammunition, food, water, rain gear etc is not practical. With the tricycle, it will be a 30 minute ride. Plus, I will be the "ammo plant" for our MAG and need a way to ferry stuff to others without wasting fuel.

Adding a small folding bike trailer adds another benefit:

https://www.amazon.com/Aosom-Wandere...92624245&psc=1

[farmbif]

if society as we know it were to collapse, which I really dont think will happen, maybe some inner city areas will suffer from riots and stuff. regardless I think the best transportation would be a good John or Molly mule, they are very kind and faithful they keep the grass mowed for free and will get you wherever you might want to go along with a load of whatever.

this whole thread started by someone thinking of how to bug out from LA. well what I found out just a few weeks ago I think is kind of crazy but these people from, well, lets just say out west, are building I guess what they are thinking is an ultimate bug out shelter not too far from my place and they are spending probably way more than $3 million that a contractor was bragging about at a nearby lunch counter. this is one of the poorer counties in appilachia where the most expensive houses might be $250-$300k.
they got a couple million worth of brand spanky new CAT digging machines and are making all kinds of big diggings, and I think its the guy that's got that tv show building a huge log chateau way out off the road.