Frustrated and near broken

[sloughfoot]

I set out a year ago to build an 308 Winchester accurate, dependable and deadly cast bullet. I’ve put in hundreds of hours of trigger time and the the same at the reloading bench testing. various bullets, various bhn, various powder. I’ve had some success on deer and hog with the ranchdog 170 FN and it’s accurate, but I also had accuracy success with an mp mold 160 grain FNHP. Load for said bullet was 25.0 grains 4227. I’ve shot 2 deer this week with rock solid rests perfectly broadside and heard the impacts on both. Both deer flopped got up and ran. Tracking dogs were used on both and no blood or recovery were made. And we put in the hard yards. First deer 80 yards second deer 200 yards. Point of aim on both we’re center shoulder. I’m not giving up on it but I’m definitely putting it on hold for the rest of the season.

[sukivel]

308 I assume?

Why 4227? An AR?

Are they going fast enough?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Woodtroll]

What's the cartridge, and what alloy are you using? Any idea of velocity? Perhaps with that big hollow point the bullets are blowing up on the shoulder bones or not penetrating past them? Just a wild guess at this point.

[white eagle]

shot placement and alloy
ya need to take out the motor not the drive train

[Dan Cash]

Your cartridge looks like a.30-06. Your post is sparse on details but I am guessing you need more weight in the bullet and more velocity. I have been using an Accurate clone of the 311291 215 grain bullet cast 20:1 and paper patched at 2200 fps from my .30-40 and 2400 from my 06. Groups are more or less 2 inches at 100 yards (both guns are 1895 Winchesters with aperture sights. Deer and antelope drop like a rock and don't get up until the loader tractor lifts them.

[txbirdman]

Years ago I killed 3 bucks with my 30/06 using the Lyman 311041 and 32 gr of H4895. Wasn’t the most accurate load in that rifle but it was adequate for white tails at 100 yds. Two of those bucks were nice 10 points and one was a small 6. All were double lung hits. All 3 ran for 50 to 100 yds. Two were dead when I got to them but the third (and the best) was still alive and thrashing around requiring another shot( had waited 15 minutes or so before following). At that point I decided I would no longer hunt deer with .30 cal cast bullets. My alloy was A/C wheel weights and the bullet had some expansion. I know others have had great success with 30’s but it’s no longer something I will use.

[versa-06]

--- I think that plain ole -- "50/50, touch of tin", -- w.w./ pure or range scrap air cooled or quenched & nose de-tempered, shallow hp if desired, (not usually necessary). Is way overlooked, Sure we all like to think my load is custom to my liking. But in .30, .40 .44, & .45 cal I've found it just plain works. PC will let you increase velocity usually. I learned this "here" several years ago & after trying everything else I've come back to the basics & it works for me. Your results may very.

[versa-06]

Oh missed .35 cal & last word should be vary. Need to proof read. My Bad.

[HATCH]

You can't give up.
I personally haven't Deer hunted in decades, however my friend Wayne is a avid Deer hunter.
He shoots factory ammo using a couple different calibers.
Typically he kills five or six deer a year but shoots more.
He has the same story.
Solid hit around the front shoulder. Deer drops but gets up and runs away.
Unable to locate. Some had blood, some didn't.
It all depends on exact shot placement. If you didn't break a bone or if it wasn't a thru shot then chances are slim that your gonna get a recovery.
I have seen a deer run 500 yards into a huge field after being shot with a major blood trail. Basically he ran until he was out of blood. The location where he was shot had internals sprayed everywhere.

So don't give up

[outdoorfan]

I think too light of a bullet and maybe not enough velocity.

I shot a couple of deer with my 30-06 and 195 grain lbt spitzer at 2400 fps muzzle velocity. Alloy was ww/soft 50/50 with a pinch of tin. HTed for 20-22 bhn and then noses softened with a torch. Performance was excellent, but only two deer tested, if I remember.

A previous avid posted of this forum, who ran a 160'sh lbt spitzer at high velocity out of his '06, confirmed that his results on deer were not good. If I remember, the alloy he used was ww plus 2% tin for ~14 bhn.

I think the 30 calibers need sufficient bullet weight (length) to overcome their lack of diameter, especially when using a softish alloy or bhn.

If I were you, I were forget the hp, use a different bullet of at lest 180+ grains, then do a two part bullet (hard shank and soft nose) or a HTed bullet with low enough antimony content to soften the noses. And then work at getting enough velocity for whatever ranges you are shooting at.

The easier route is to use a rifle with a .35 bore... Lol!

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Don’t give up. Aim for the heart and keep shots under 150 yards.

[Friends call me Pac]

I wouldn't give up yet on that bullet. I have had great success with my 30.06 and a NOE 165gr rf. 4895 plus 1 gr dacron filler. Of the top of my head I think the charge is 29gr. Here are a couple taken with that bullet





Same bullet in 30.30 works fine too



I don't hollow point but I do use a 50:50 soft lead and ww with pinch of tin for my hunting bullet and use the straight ww or ww/range scrap mix for targets. The longest I have had to track is close to 100 yards. Most fall within sight. The longest shot I have taken is maybe 120 yards. This is the only bullet I have recovered from a deer. It looks to have expanded well.

[sloughfoot]

Sorry I edited 308 Winchester

[BK7saum]

I have shot a couple deer with the MP hunting approximately 160 grain and hollowpointed, looks like same bullet you have. Running about 1600-1800 fps out of a 300 blackout using 50/50 WW/lead with touch of tin. I shoot for behind the shoulder, not point of the shoulder for a double lung shot. They dont go far and get pass throughs for extra chance of blood.

Point of shoulder doesn't give much opportunity to hit vitals. Heart is low and lungs are further back. If your bullet looses velocity and energy going through the shoulder and you miss the arteries and spine, then not much else there to kill a deer. Behind the shoulder is more likely to leave blood trail as there is less. tissue/muscle mass for the blood to have to get through to leave a blood trail.

I think point of shoulder shots would be better suited to to a soild, not hollowpoint bullet.

Sorry that you were unable to recover your deer, that sucks, been there myself. Not trying to be critical at all, just offering possibilities based upon my own experience.

I shot a doe with a MP311-410 a few weeks ago, subsonic, throught the heart. She trotted about 15 yards, wobbled and fell over. Shot placement is key. If shooting for point of shoulder to break down the front end, i would go bigger, heavier, and faster. I think you lost too much mass and energy getting through the shoulder with the hollowpoint bullet.

Better luck with your next hunt. Brad

[HWooldridge]

About 25 years ago, I went deer hunting with our 2nd son, who was 11 at the time. I made a shot on a doe using my Marlin 45-70 and a 455 gr slug with gas-check, this was about 30 yds away at dusk. I fired and she just stood there - so I jacked in another one and fired again. This time, she turned and ran about 50 yards back the way she had previously walked and we lost her in the dark. We were both dumbfounded and I told my son that I must have hit the scope and knocked it out of alignment.

Our host heard the shots and drove out to pick us up; we decided to go ahead and look since 15-20 minutes had elapsed. We found her dead with two clean 45 holes thru her neck - but neither had clipped an artery or hit the vertebrae. There was almost no blood trail. I’m convinced we would have lost her if we had pursued immediately - we were just lucky to have waited so she could lay down and die.

The point to this story is that a lot of people would say a .45 hole causes a lot of damage and should logically bring down any animal but both kinetic energy transfer and shot placement are key to quick kills. You need a balance of power and accuracy to get the job done cleanly.

[sloughfoot]

Is that the Lee bullet

[dverna]

Sloughfoot, your post is refreshing in its honesty.

I went down that road decades ago and learned I was better off using jacketed bullets in the .30 caliber rifles I hunt with. It is not possible to get the accuracy and ballistic performance of jacketed bullets with cast. I want one load whether shooting at 50 yards or 400 yards.

My method has worked for me. I bought 5 boxes of excellent jacketed bullets. I had a MOA load with less than a box of bullets expended. The remaining 400+ bullets will last my lifetime. I use 3-9 bullets to check the scope every year, and 1 bullet per deer...I do not shoot more than two per year as that is plenty of venison for the two of us.

I do not plink with my hunting rifles, so I do not shoot cast in them. I have cheaper and easier ways to get trigger time than shooting .30 cal bottleneck cases.

There is no advantage in shooting cast bullets in a HV centerfire. The few pennies saved per bullet are not worth the wasted powder and primers to find a decent load. And it is near, if not impossible to get a cast bullet to match the accuracy of a jacketed bullet or its ability to deliver adequate expansion from 50-400 yards.

I understand the ego thing of harvesting game with a bullet a person has made. It speaks to self-sufficiency, casting talent, load development, and getting results with "mediocre" resources. That word will upset some...but a .30 cal cast bullet is mediocre in every respect to a Sierra GameKing, Hornady SST, etc etc.

Wasting time is ok if a person enjoys load development. Wasting resources (primers, powder, cases, lead) is ok if a person can afford it. That holds for acquiring different molds and sizing dies to find the "right" one. In the end, most people accept something that is "good enough" when spending $200 for 5 boxes of bullets would give them a better outcome.

Even if I could harvest 50 deer a year, I would not dink around with cast rifle bullets. Saving a Jackson on half a box of .30 caliber bullets would not make sense to me.

[sloughfoot]

Sloughfoot, your post is refreshing in its honesty.

I went down that road decades ago and learned I was better off using jacketed bullets in the .30 caliber rifles I hunt with. It is not possible to get the accuracy and ballistic performance of jacketed bullets with cast. I want one load whether shooting at 50 yards or 400 yards.

My method has worked for me. I bought 5 boxes of excellent jacketed bullets. I had a MOA load with less than a box of bullets expended. The remaining 400+ bullets will last my lifetime. I use 3-9 bullets to check the scope every year, and 1 bullet per deer...I do not shoot more than two per year as that is plenty of venison for the two of us.

I do not plink with my hunting rifles, so I do not shoot cast in them. I have cheaper and easier ways to get trigger time than shooting .30 cal bottleneck cases.

There is no advantage in shooting cast bullets in a HV centerfire. The few pennies saved per bullet are not worth the wasted powder and primers to find a decent load. And it is near, if not impossible to get a cast bullet to match the accuracy of a jacketed bullet or its ability to deliver adequate expansion from 50-400 yards.

I understand the ego thing of harvesting game with a bullet a person has made. It speaks to self-sufficiency, casting talent, load development, and getting results with "mediocre" resources. That word will upset some...but a .30 cal cast bullet is mediocre in every respect to a Sierra GameKing, Hornady SST, etc etc.

Wasting time is ok if a person enjoys load development. Wasting resources (primers, powder, cases, lead) is ok if a person can afford it. That holds for acquiring different molds and sizing dies to find the "right" one. In the end, most people accept something that is "good enough" when spending $200 for 5 boxes of bullets would give them a better outcome.

Even if I could harvest 50 deer a year, I would not dink around with cast rifle bullets. Saving a Jackson on half a box of .30 caliber bullets would not make sense to me.

With the amount of time I’ve put in I can’t help but to think you’re right. And yes I had become angry with components availability is what lead me down this hole. I too am a guy that likes 1 load for one rifle. Today I pulled out a box of old stock Sierra game king 165 grains and zeroed the 308. To hunt the rest of the season

[Tripplebeards]

Assuming you hit where you aimed, if it were me, I’d shoot a softer alloy and more velocity. I was trying to get a deer the day before yesterday with my 77/44 and a 7.5 BH alloy HP but didn’t see anything. Tried it a few seasons back. Same HP ran at 1750fps and 15.4 BH. Shot 3 deer. One dropped and two ran over a hundred yards with little to no blood. The one that dropped kicked around for a few minutes before expiring. The bullets never expanded IMO. I shot a doe last year with the 35 Rem using a HP with 50/50 alloy at 2100 fps. I had them loaded with 40 grains of varget (my avatar photo) Bang flop with a huge in and out hole in the ribs. Heart and lung shot. I think soft alloy and over 2,000 fps muzzle velocities is the key to a quick kill with cast boolits when the CNS isn’t hit. I’ve posted my findings with photos on both experiences.

[white cloud]

Sloughfoot, your post is refreshing in its honesty.

I went down that road decades ago and learned I was better off using jacketed bullets in the .30 caliber rifles I hunt with. It is not possible to get the accuracy and ballistic performance of jacketed bullets with cast. I want one load whether shooting at 50 yards or 400 yards.

My method has worked for me. I bought 5 boxes of excellent jacketed bullets. I had a MOA load with less than a box of bullets expended. The remaining 400+ bullets will last my lifetime. I use 3-9 bullets to check the scope every year, and 1 bullet per deer...I do not shoot more than two per year as that is plenty of venison for the two of us.

I do not plink with my hunting rifles, so I do not shoot cast in them. I have cheaper and easier ways to get trigger time than shooting .30 cal bottleneck cases.

There is no advantage in shooting cast bullets in a HV centerfire. The few pennies saved per bullet are not worth the wasted powder and primers to find a decent load. And it is near, if not impossible to get a cast bullet to match the accuracy of a jacketed bullet or its ability to deliver adequate expansion from 50-400 yards.

I understand the ego thing of harvesting game with a bullet a person has made. It speaks to self-sufficiency, casting talent, load development, and getting results with "mediocre" resources. That word will upset some...but a .30 cal cast bullet is mediocre in every respect to a Sierra GameKing, Hornady SST, etc etc.

Wasting time is ok if a person enjoys load development. Wasting resources (primers, powder, cases, lead) is ok if a person can afford it. That holds for acquiring different molds and sizing dies to find the "right" one. In the end, most people accept something that is "good enough" when spending $200 for 5 boxes of bullets would give them a better outcome.

Even if I could harvest 50 deer a year, I would not dink around with cast rifle bullets. Saving a Jackson on half a box of .30 caliber bullets would not make sense to me.

Thank you for writing this! I hope many people read your response.