Hello there, I am new to the board and am looking for some counseling and "schoolhousing" on loading for for the new to me Zoli 58 caliber rifle. Patch and ball or mini ball, and which one and why. I will appreciate any info you can pass on to me. Not new to BP, but all my time has been w/ BPCR.
Thanks in advance
What is the twist rate of the barrel?
Ok here's the scoop
For accurate shooting you must KNOW the size of your barrel, not what's stamped, not what the internet says, not what your reenactor neighbor said. Then use a minie sized to .001 under the bore size made from pure lead. Use real black powder 2f or 3f. You'll find that in most cases 3f fouls less. Use only a natural based lube. I use 50/50 beeswax/lard. Use quality caps. RWS and Schuetzen are great. CCI reenactor caps are suitable only for blanks. As for twist rate, the Zoli is a known good shooting rifle and has a slow twist as do most minie ball muskets. It "can" shoot a round ball but I've found the minie performs better.
You'll hear lots of opinions on the minie ball rifled musket, but they are a completely different critter from your average patch round ball gun. Follow what I've posted and get the minie system balanced as Cpt. Minie designed it and you can shoot till you run out of ammo, shoulder or daylight, whichever comes first and all with accuracy.
But hey, what do I know, it's not like I shoot competition with these and am a certified Instructor or anything-
A man cannot have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
Rudyard Kipling
Palmetto Sharpshooters
North South Skirmish Association
NRA Muzzleloading Instructor
Also, depending on where you live, there is a group call the North South Skirmish Association. We are a group of competition shooters who shoot Civil War era arms and the Zoli is a well regarded rifle. We shoot minies in rifled muskets and only use round ball in the smoothbore matches. We also compete with artillery in live fire. No reenacting, no blanks. It's all live ammunition shot for score in competition. The N-SSA is primarily in the eastern US and we have a permanent range in Winchester, VA where we hold our Nationals twice a year and nearly monthly for the rest of the year. Each region also hold matches in their respective areas. If you want to deep dive on how to shoot a minie gun, get to know the N-SSA or better yet, take a hit off the black powder crack pipe and join the N-SSA and find out just how addictive these guns are. We are organized as "teams" or "units". Competition is shot as a team against other teams. Targets are frangible, break it, it counts, miss it, it counts against you and all the while the clock is running. You have to balance speed and accuracy and having a gun that won't shoot well is a handicap. There are some other N-SSA members on this board and I'm sure they'll chime in. Carbine is with a Federal team and I'm with a Southern team and we're still friends. When the horn sounds though, we'll both do our dead level best with a musket and may the best team win. It's great fun.Originally Posted by Rifledude
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP5Ktfg86kE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp1qho8DLuw
A man cannot have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition.
Rudyard Kipling
Palmetto Sharpshooters
North South Skirmish Association
NRA Muzzleloading Instructor
Lots of fun sorting a load. Mine is a PARKER HALE and like minnies rather than ball.
Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!
I agree with Dave. Been Skirmishing for 40 years in N-SSA. Minie's are sooo much easier than Patched round ball. One hole groups from the bench are the norm today
I haven't seen ASH CAN'S I beleave that is what the flat nosed 58's are called? I couldn't get them to group but they punch holes as a wadcutter would.
My Parker Hale won't shoot patched balls worth a darn but my '63 by Miroku will. Since buying minies and getting them sized and such is kind of a big undertaking for a newbie, I'm going to suggest buying a box of Hornady .570" balls, getting some pre cut ticking patches or some fabric, loading up about 60 gr. FFg powder and giving it a try. I know it's not ideal but for someone with no experience with rifled muskets it will allow him to shoot it and get an idea of what it feels like. The fine tuning can come later.
I use mine for hunting with heavy loads. I shoot the 575213 OS (Old Style) minie over 90grs FFFg sighted in 5" high at 50 yards which puts it right on at 100yds. It will shoot lengthwise through a deer and hardly ruin any meat. The N/SSA target loads are the thinner skirted minies and 30-45 grs powder. The round balls or .560-.570 are easier to cast and fun to plink or hunt with.
Hellgate in Orygun
With 16+revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap&ball.
If you do not subscribe to a newspaper you are uninformed. If you do subscribe to a newspaper you are misinformed. Mark Twain
”We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, yet they are still lying.” –Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn
Pin gauges can be used to check bore size, for example .575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580 as some reproduction musket barrels run large. Travers Tool sells them online.
Northeast Trade Co. sells push thru sizing dies in musket sizes, both press mounted and ones you clamp into a vice.
I think Zoli Zouaves have 1-72 twists.
Thanks to all who took the time to respond to a newbie's question. I slugged the barrel today and got .588" as the best measurement I could. Twist rate is next. Got some Sheutzen musket caps on order, and have 2F to stoke it with. To rmark: this looks like an 1863........ what would make it a Zouave? Again thanks! Your input is appreciated.
Youll likely find the twist is 1/72........in the 1850s ,anything rifled was 1 in six feet ,including cannons......the rate turned out too slow for rifles,but too quick for cannons............incidentally,Ive found the best accuracy from the Parker Hale /Lyman bullet....which is somewhat heavy ,and 60 -70 grains of either 2f or 3f........You will also find the Zouave design needs a small brass plate guard for the nipple flash to stop the stock wood getting burned away.
I have a Zoli mississippi rifle - slow twist - couldnt get it to shoot minies worth a damn - patched round ball was easy from the first shot.
have heard all the blarney about one hole groups with minies from these 70+ twist barrels - have seen lots of em fail to deliver - have yet to see one shoot decent at 100yards with a range of minies - we traded our long Enfield three band for a 48 twist two bander and ended the problem - that gun will shoot well with about any old minie you feed it .
Dave 951,
I am no stranger to competition, I shot service rifle form '80-'92 for the Nat Guard and All Guard '84-'92 at the nation level. Metallic Silhouettes before that for several years. Now it's just for the fun and relaxation. I am in MT and winter has set in so it's time for development and tweaking guns and loads in the shop rather than outdoors in the cold. My Son is in SC, Charleston area, and I keep trying to get him interested in some kind of shooting.
I used to reliably get 4" @100yds with Minies,and that is what others have said too.........very important is the bullet must be soft ......nearly pure lead......some of the online cast minies are hard ,and useless for anything but melting down............Ill diverge from general opinion here ,and say I always used a lube made of parafin wax and 140 diff oil......heavy dip coat all over the bullet ,enough oil to show wet when the wax cracks......Never any fouling ,just runny black goo......Definitely need boiling water to shift the oily goo tho.
It's been decades since I've shot a ''Zoli-Zooie'' mine was a Lyman branded one, Navy Arms, and Dixie Gun Works also put their names on them. As I recall they shot well with a Lyman 575213 NS bullet and as others have said, sized .001'' smaller than land diameter. I wouldn't concern myself much with the twist rate, I have an original Enfield P58 Naval rifle with a 1:48 twist, also a Parker Hale 1861 Musketoon with the same, a ''custom'' built 1862 Fayetteville CSA rifle with 1:72, an original Windsor Enfiled with a Hoyt reline 1:60, and an original relined U.S. 1863 riflemusket with a 1:48 Hoyt liner, some 5 groove progressive depth rifling, some 3 groove progressive depth. They all shoot their own specific bullet/powder combinations well.
The Zoli-Zooies are getting old, most are up there in age and some well used. During your winter down time you may want to replace some of the lock internals, main spring and sear spring in particular, also new SS sure fire nipple. You can get these from Lodgewood Mfg. 262-473-5444 S&S 718-497-1100 Regimental Quartermaster 717-338-1850. It may also prove beneficial to add a dab of bedding compound at the breech plug and under the breech end of the barrel as the fit on some of these left something to be desired. They were good guns, they were economical and could benefit from some upgrades, I've seen a few with weak springs in later years due to age and use. Zoli springs are kinda soft compared with originals which have stood the test of time.
Liberalism is a cult divorced from reality.
The Remington 1863 2 band rifle is referred to as the Zouave. The replicas look good on the outside but barrel twists and rifling vary considerably from the originals - Euroarms used 1-66 twists, Armisport 1-56, making the historic load information not very useful. Look for soft lead minie that just slips into the bore or about .001 under bore size.
As an example I have a Euroarms 2 band Enfield 1-66 twist constant depth rifling that I size a Rapine trashcan style minie to .581 which just slips into the bore, using 35 grains Goex 3f which will shoot several shots touching at 50 yards. But historically this model of gun had 1-48 twist decreasing depth rifling.
The original ''Remington Contract Rifle'', (as it was officially known) called for a, ''Harper's Ferry'' pattern rifle with sword type bayonet to be submitted for approval and a contract of 10,000 rifles. The rifle Remington made had a 33'' .58 heavy barrel with 7 groove rifling 1:60 twist being of progressive depth type. Specifications for the rifle and correspondence can be found in Claud E. Fuller's book, ''The Rifled Musket'' pages, 152-153. The rifles were thought to be of exceptionally high quality, yet few if any were issued and remained in Gov't stores until sold off as surplus.
None of the Italian makers have produced anything close to what the original was as to number of grooves, twist, or depth, but they all seem to shoot relatively well, out to 100yds. at least.
Liberalism is a cult divorced from reality.
Rifledude,
I doubt your bore is .588. The Zouave by Antonio Zoli IIRC is a 3 rifling bore and can be tricky to slug (something like subtract half the land depth).
Hellgate in Orygun
With 16+revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap&ball.
If you do not subscribe to a newspaper you are uninformed. If you do subscribe to a newspaper you are misinformed. Mark Twain
”We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, yet they are still lying.” –Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn
ok the 48 twist barrels are easy ----what is your "specific boolit powder combination" for the 72 twist barrel - thats where the problems arise. My zoli will do 4 inches at 100yards with patched ball - the barrel is near mint condition.
thanks
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